Before…
…And after.
Ding Gagelonia’s recent entry in his blog, At Midfield, got me thinking. As well as some comments by readers for me to consider their view that there’s not enough time to pursue Charter Change (I think there is).
But both got me to reflect, once again, on this: Timing is everything in politics, the saying goes. Yesterday’s Inquirer editorial points to the political timing of oil price rollbacks, for example.
You can calculate your moves to be timed in such a manner as to throw your opponents off-kilter. You determine the timing of events.
Or you can time your moves to coincide or take advantage of events no one could preordained, but which you foresaw as being predetermined, that is, they would occur sooner or later, and once they take place, better-prepared, you can seize the moment.
Time is seasonal; for example, in terms of political time, impeachment has its season and other things, like Charter Change, have their own season.
What happens when two seasons coincide or their timing seems to operate at cross-purposes to each other.
After all, the only thing that can seriously derail the marshaling of forces for Charter Change is impeachment. Or is it?
What if you put it another way, the other way around? The only thing that can derail the marshaling of forces for impeachment is Charter Change.
The only checkmate on the President is impeachment, not the official end of her term; for her term expiring is at best, a moveable goal-post (create a new job, and the expiration of your term isn’t consequential; retiring isn’t a problem if besides an obliging Ombudsman and a friendly Supreme Court, you have a new President you swung the election to). Only impeachment means sudden death, politically. And things can happen very fast, when people see a check mate unfolding, for capitalizing on it requires only a committed and nimble minority with its eye on the prize.
The long, hard slog of trying to exact accountability through constitutional means since it was first attempted in 2005 has only served to sap the will of those attempting it and makes cynical those who favor it as a means of replacing a president above all others. As Cocoy wrote in The Political Machinery and Infrastructure Of President Arroyo:
But I submit, to you my dear readers, that the cases against President Gloria Arroyo, are strong, very strong, based on command responsibility, based on misappropriated funds, and so much more, but the smoking gun has never been found, except for one, which I mention in the next paragraph. Call it genius, I say it’s something else. You decide. And even when it led straight to the top, it has had to be based on testimony, for example, that of Romulo Neri. He told her about the alleged bribe attempt, she confirmed her knowledge about the NBN deal, in no less than on a radio show, but still, nothing came about.
Even, when the strongest case, election fraud, was brought to The Senate, in the whirlwind that we now know as The Garci Tapes, we still could not deliver a death sentence to this Administration, it was not only a failure of our government, and all those involved, but it was the death of the trust that our people had in this government.
President Gloria Arroyo, blame her all you want, because I certainly do, has built up so many safeguards, has made the political moves, and has the deep political team, and bench, that even in such a time in which Joc Joc Bolante is now testifying before The Senate, she may be a bit nervous, but in the end, she has to know, her machinery, and her political infrastructure will shield her from any form of accountability. Each and every time, she has been cleared, either by witnesses, by government institutions, or by providing another fall guy to take the fall.
It’s a sad realization. That even, while, I am sick to my stomach, watching the Joc Joc hearings, that, nothing seems be coming out of it, that it is important that The Filipino People realize, just as when Neri testified, the messed up system of procurement, appropriation, project planning, etc, that our nation is in.
But, when people close their eyes to such anomalies, declare a saint out of this woman, I take notice, and I take offense, because such denial, such defense, it can no longer can be based on logical reason, but on a mere partisan reaction.
So, we are in a quandry, the obviousness of the whole affair, this affair that we call The Arroyo Administration, as to how to hold her responsible. But we have not the political climate to exact the punishment that is due to her. The strongest hard evidence, The Hello Garci tapes, led to nothing, but a now popular term - “Noted”.
Hard evidence is there, I say, but even putting this aside, the most damning is when you take the bulk of these anomalies, add on to it human rights violations, kidnappings during this regime, and now a resurgent Fertilizer Fund Scam investigation, these all scream Arroyo, and political will is strong to bring her to account, but the numbers, however, and the machinery sides with Arroyo.
In light of the above, let me propose, further, that the only people really in a position to put teeth in the proceedings, are not her long-standing foes, but her more recent foes: those who were once very close allies and partook of presidential plenty during the happy days of old. And who was closer than Jose de Venecia, Jr.? Arguably three individuals spelled the difference between a breathing spell and a second wind, politically, and resignation and exile in 2005. They were: Fidel V. Ramos, Jose de Venecia, Jr., and Gaudencio Cardinal Rosales, Archbishop of Manila.
FVR and JDV thought they’d saved the President in exchange for her bowing out gracefully by means of a transitional parliamentary being put in place by 2006. By the time that deadline rolled around, FVR had been publicly sidelined in his own party; the Speaker had been stalled by a last gasp of People Power summoned by the Catholic hierarchy in December, 2006. So in 2007 mopping-up operations took place courtesy of the NBN-ZTE controversy which led to de Venecia’s being deposed.
Every time de Venecia previously showed signs of spilling the beans, the Palace ferociously asserted there were no beans to spill at all; failing that, that they would be self-incriminating beans, too; and failing that, that the beans ought to be spilled “in the proper forum,” which the Palace of course controlled. In other words, a thick smokescreen is laid down, as the Palace checks and re-checks the chain of command, counts votes in the House, summons and obtains manifestos of support from governors and mayors, sends emissaries with sweeteners to the bishops, puts together cabinet and other clusters to game out scenarios, and so forth.
A smokescreen buys time, and time allows you to look for opportunities. Laying down that smokescreen -with its great, rolling clouds of appeals to “objectivity,” to “sobriety,” for “stability,” and the other noxious rhetorical vapors of the official media machine, has been perfected over time, as Write Rhythm recently pointed out, showing how the institution most people rely on to get their news and comprehend the topsy-turvy world of politics, can be gamed:
Aside from the number of issues to report about this administration, The Age of Gloria is a challenging time for Filipino journalists because of another characteristic of this era. The Age of Gloria… okay let’s be more specific, Gloria is known for her strategy of divert and obfuscate. Aside from diverting funds, Gloria is a master of diverting the public’s attention to another issue (i.e. usually the economy, national unity, etc.), thereby obfuscating the original issue by bombarding people with one issue after another. Unfortunately, this has worked to her advantage as the media and civil society try to keep up with the many issues tied to her.
The difficulty in setting the agenda is that the Philippine media has to consider both what is new and timely, and what is a matter of public interest. Sometimes, the two do not go together. especially with the administration’s expertise of burying issues in the past. Sometimes, they do but not to an extent that the choice is clear. And oftentimes, one has to yield to yet another consideration of choosing the other, sexier stories.
Let me suggest that there apparently may have been political rhyme and reason to de Venecia’s loudly proclaiming he’d spill the beans, but stepping back or never letting more than a stray little bean escape -a mere hint of the pork and beans he wanted to spill. He is by temperament and instinct, I think everyone agrees, a consensus-builder, an operator, not the kind who leads cavalry charges. It certainly exasperated those egging him on to come out swinging. Of course even as people thought they were taking the measure of the man, whether from the ranks of the Palace or the various factions of the opposition, he was taking their measure, too. Having been in politics longer than most of them, it’s entirely possible he held his peace and did his Dopey act to buy time and fend off the more aggressive among those importuning him to weigh in.
If you are up against a numerically and logistically superior enemy, you do not make a frontal attack at the time and place chosen by that enemy. If the spider and the fly had been politicians, the spider would have said “bring it to the proper forum!” instead of “welcome to my parlor.”
So what do you do, if you are, in Sergio Osmena Jr.’s words, “outgunned, outgooned, and outgold”? You probe for weaknesses. You foster, in the superior enemy, a sense of its overwhelming superiority, so that the enemy begins to believe its own propaganda.
You also marshal your own forces, whatever they might be, and do what you do best: build or re-build alliances.
Both take time, and craft, not boldness; or more craftiness, at least in private, and less boldness, at least in public. Both require biding your time so you don’t play entirely according to the game plan of the enemy.
Still, while things can happen pretty fast, plots require time to be hatched. One major strength of any administration is its access to information, aided by our national propensity to boast and gossip.
For months now, it’s been talked about that de Venecia consulted other disgruntled elders, such as Fidel V. Ramos, and others, all of whom are chafing at the interminable durability of the President, as well as other power players who are inclined as much to think one step ahead as the President, whether it’s potential presidential candidates like Manuel Villar, Jr. or people fully intent on continuing to play the role of king maker, like Eduardo Cojuangco, Jr. One such meeting took place around September, where FVR is said to have received JDV in order to determine if provincemate really had the goods, and could really put up a fight.
The two supposedly reached a tacit agreement involving JDV throwing the bomb, and if it had the intended effect, it would provide the two -FVR and JDV- with a pretext to call for the scrapping of the Lakas-Kampi merger, and take an FVR-JDV loyalist rump into union with the NPC of Cojuangco and the NP of Villar. An application had been been filed with Christian Democrats International to accredit the NP as a Christian Democratic party, providing an ideological pretext for the new coalition, while the NPC could simply state that as a child of the NP, it was simply patching up the quarrel among partymates that dated back to Danding Cojuangco and Doy Laurel’s disagreement over who should have the party franchise.
All very neat, tidy, potentially formidable, a real game-changer, and one denying the President’s uncouth Kampi blowhards and the perpetual Opposition losers the satisfaction of victory. A true victory for the veterans. At least, this is the delicious scenario as they might see it.
In recent weeks, it’s been talked about that the NPC began to stall on Charter Change talks, and that the Palace decided to accelerate the killing of the impeachment complaint not only to forestall opportunities for new revelations, but also to maintain their political momentum and stampede representatives into joining the Charter Change bandwagon. The way things ebbed and flowed in the House going into the last Charter Change effort in 2006, indicates how congressmen can be mulish just when the mule drivers want them to trot. As it is, the Palace has had to give the impression it’s backpedaling a bit: Palace: No to lifting of term limits really says nothing, though. the Palace, procedurally and politically, can “exclude, dismiss, and reject” whatever it wants in public, but so long as the behind-the-scenes green light stays lit, the ultimate aim of something for everyone can be achieved. Part of the smokescreen.
And there are other leaders perpetually circling around, sniffing for opportunity. Which is why I’m inclined to think Uniffors is on to something. What do you think is a bigger motivation, and calculation, for someone like Juan Ponce Enrile? To wrap up his political career “para siempre un muchacho,” as his generation might put it, or as possibly, the transitional President of the Philippines, his portrait permanently on display in the presidential palace? Amando Doronila, who has had decades to observe his former jailer, Enrile, says a sudden toppling of a President who views him as an elderly toady is just the sort of thing to make the old schemer grin in anticipation.
Everyone knows timing is everything in politics. If everyone has begun to think of a post-Arroyo future, how do you, as Arroyo, keep yourself front and center, to continue enjoying a maximum number of political options? The President has always shown a marked preference for thinking tactically and not strategically. Her elders pride themselves on thinking strategically. The tactician has proven herself the mistress of the strategists so far.
The way to keep everyone off-kilter is not to wait for them to throw you off, but to throw them off, obviously.
How?
Start having the machinery you control belch out another smokescreen.
It seems Secretary Jesus Dureza confided to persons close to him that they were going to do “something” the next morning, to gauge the public pulse. The next morning, Dureza said his famous little prayer and what had been previously sewn up at Rep. Romualdez’s house, could begin to be delivered -Charter Change.
Charter Change primarily as smokescreen, but also, since there’s nothing to lose, as yet another item in the menu of presidential options.
Charter Change immediately swept the central story -impeachment, with all the accompanying side plots, from Bolante to the Eurogenerals, to NBN-ZTE-deal, off the table, as far as public attention was concerned.
Something beyond the Palace’s control had refocused the story not on the President’s insistence that all was well, but on everything that had made her administration unpopular in the first place. That thing was Bolante’s return, and impeachment season coming at its heels.
That thing includes reminders of all the many issues that have antagonized the public, including, I might add, the question of the BJE-MOA deal, which even the president’s critics didn’t want to touch with a ten foot pole.
Charter Change could have been resumed, with a lot of fanfare, two months ago or even two months from now. But why go great guns now?
Because it’s the only way to stop being on the defensive, and instead, go on the offensive.
But it seems the timing was not, exactly, right. Because the timing had been determined not by the Palace, from the start, but by other things.
Charter Change essentially remains a reaction to the embarrassment Bolante represents, and someone else proved capable of mastering the timeline, too.
Yesterday’s Inquirer reported on the revelations de Venecia’s already made -by means of his authorized biography- and which the House has to prevent being further elaborated upon and amplified in the House deliberations on impeachment. See JDV details secret Arroyo-ZTE meeting:
Again, timing is everything in politics. Those deliberations, at least in the Justice Committee, were supposed to be wrapped up last Friday. But the hearings on Thursday and Friday were canceled.
Timing is everything in politics. And it’s just as well that the gastrointestinal troubles of the President’s husband has him home in time to mind the store as the House of Representatives wrestles with what to do with its former Speaker, Jose de Venecia, Jr.
With the President absent (a benefit of her absences, if you’ve noticed, is that out sight means being out of mind: reducing the effect she has on public opinion, which is galvanize it, against herself), the man everyone, even her own loyalists, dislikes but needs, can take up the slack because he has nothing to lose. Ergo, First Gentleman: JDV a ‘liar’. Hey, it’s a crappy job but someone has to do it, and the President’s husband does it pretty well, in public and more crucially, behind the scenes.
JDV had wrestled with the problem of his lacking the numbers to prevent his being gagged by the House. Recall how he’d tried to do so, but coverage was cut off by the new House leadership. If one assumes he’s capable of a certain amount of introspection, he knows full well that among his many liabilities as a politician, is how he cannot make pithy remarks in front of media, he tends to meander and his rambling undercuts his effectivity. He is more suited to cajoling people in back rooms and, from time to time, making more carefully-structured speeches.
Which makes his decision to publish an authorized biography a pretty clever political move, one which undercuts his administration foes, and centers the discussion on his allegations. Critics would have to repeatedly make reference to the allegations, put forward in print; those references will make people curious; curious people will want to read what’s been written, and throughout the process, the debate will keep returning to the source document -de Venecia’s book. For this reason, I disagree with smoke who wrote, yesterday:
As far as bombshells go, this was a certifiable dud. Certainly didn’t reveal anything new, nor even added any sort of nuance to the story that’s been told over and over and over by everyone and his dog. JDV’s recollection of these events merely invites the reader to make the connections for himself – something which we’re all pretty good at; a strategy guaranteed to generate the most salacious conclusions possible.
There is a calibrated effort going on. Smoke’s entry was in response to his restating some of his original revelations. That’s just one story, in a book no one has had time to fully read, but whose contents are slowly -and surely, with timing in mind- being dribbled out by the one who authorized the book, JDV.
So, going into today’s hearing in the House, other revelations were made: JDV confirms P500,000 Palace bribe: Says cash for ‘weak’ impeach complaint. You can bet your bottom dollar that will dominate the morning news.
Again, not much by way of a revelation except it provides in-house confirmation, so to speak, of something everyone saw because the congressmen waddling out of the Palace in 2007 didn’t bother to hide their gift bags. And it confirms the testimony of Gov. Panlilio of Pampanga, another official on the Palace hit list.
But Joey de Venecia’s already said he expects his father to spill at least some beans on the issue everyone thought JDV would always remain mum on: North Rail.
We shall see how it unfolds today if it’s explosive or if it’s a dud. The Palace has to ride it out today and going into the rest of the week, trying to kill impeachment by midweek and ensure this by publicly ramping up Charter Change. JDV says he’s leaving Tuesday for Washington -where he has friends, unlike the President- which gives him a chance to peddle his book to foreign media, and leaves the Palace with no target to vent its ire on: it will have to face the accusations by its lonesome, when it’s usual tactic is to turn the tables on accusers by unleashing the attack dogs. But Washington is the last place to send those attack dogs, because the brunt of the asking will be done here at home.
Brilliant, if you ask me, true guerrilla hit-and-run tactics.
So if the de Venecias pull this off, and today turns out politically explosive, it should then be described as the day that revenge was truly proven to best be served cold. That’s another hoary old chestnut, but for some, it’s true.
If some of us would take inspiration from a Shakespearean call to sally forth, “Once more, unto the breach!” There’s the the little old prune who could just as much say, “Do or do not, there is no try.”
Update:
I find it interesting that the President’s husband had to sally forth and face the cameras. Flanked by his two sons. The President’s congressional allies have been rather subdued.
As Mon Casiple puts it in his entry for today:
Actual impeachment may be a lesser possibility based on the numbers in the House of Representatives but the political implications are certainly big enough. The revelation guarantees the focus on GMA’s foibles and constitutes further political pressure to make her resign.
The GMA majority in the House of Representatives actually rests on the fragile loyalty that money can provide. It is only feasible as long as the continued stay in power of the powers dispensing the largesse is assured. This is the reason why the current charter change move by Malacañang is being watched by all sides. When it fails, no money can dissuade the congressmen from seeking new patrons among the presidentiables. Their own survival imperative to stay in power will trump the money.
Before then, the pressure on GMA to resign is expected to increase. What is unspoken in this message is the “or else” clause. This is brought about by the interesting anti-GMA positioning of the de Venecias who are still very much a part of the ruling Lakas-CMD coalition party. Malacañang cannot anymore be certain of the loyalty of the majority in the ruling coalition, particularly the non-GMA Lakas-CMD, the NPC, House LPs, and other smaller groups. This was not present before in previous opposition initiatives.
This is an elaboration on the possible scenario I indicated above. And brings up all sorts of interesting permutations, including a cabinet declaration of presidential incapacity, which if contested by the President, leads to the question being thrown to Congress.
Blogger seven million goldfish in exasperation and alarm asks why not just shoot her? Those in a position or with an inclination to do so, are in jail. The truly big political players are not inclined to invest in or promote permanent solutions. And the question is not to eliminate her at all costs, but to save the Republic even if it means the President preterminating her term.
***
My column for today is, Congressmen respond, with the responses of Rep. Risa Hontiveros-Baraquel and Rep. Teodoro L. Locsin, Jr. to my my last column.
impeachment is an exercise of futility on part of the minority, although not entirely a waste of their time and effort, for one thing the filing of impeachment does is remind the citizenry of how corrupt and void of morality our politicians in the administration are. otherwise no amount of proof or backdoor dealings will ever get it to progress in congress.
even if Jesus Christ will materialize in front of the tongresmen to convince them. They can always say it is not sufficient, where’s the beef? he is only an actor. also even after Jesus turns the water into wine in front of them, in majority, their reply would be, “it is just magic, surely david blaine or kris angel can do that in las vegas”.
even if they can have a picture of gma holding the money and handling it over to the tongresmen, “the picture is doctored”
even the garci tape, “i spoke to a comelec official but not garci”. ha! nothing will ever be good enough for them. the only proof or evidence they will take is what the malacanang is giving them, a bagful of monies, a promise of more money every filing of impeachment and election, and promise to keep them in power and more money.
if the minority can do that maybe they will stop and pause to consider those evidence. and why should the minority will do that anyway?
and those of you saying lobby your congress in the province, ha! have you tried that? have anyone tried that? unless you are filthy rich or one of the backers of that tongresman, then he will listen to you. otherwise it is what they say “suntok sa buwan”.
Jon,
You wrote: “I don’t trust Gloria that’s why I support moves to get her out of the office now.”
Ahhh…so after we take the time to look at reality using the tools of intellectual thought, you just throw up your hands and spit out the “Now na!” line. What a phony!
So the point is that you don’t care about the truth, about justice, about fairness or about what might be the best thing for the country. You just want to break the law and be a part of national suicide, eh? You want to reject democracy and you think that your opinions somehow justify whatever outcome you choose?
So which dictator are you interested in installing, Jon?
is erap’s case was entire a different atmosphere. erap has that sense of over confidence and even then the impeachment was sent to the senate, erap did not lost. it was the people power movement that finally topple him from the throne. and this is where gma is smart, she learned that lesson from her predecessor. kill it early, don’t let people mass up, hence the CPR (which was struck down by the SC, but was also late because gma has already achieved the needed effect).
1/3 is suntok sa buwan.
Erap controlled the Senate…he was right when he figured his allies in there would protect him.
I disapprove of the illegal method of removing Erap.
That’s why the Anti-GMA ran to the streets and screeched their brains out and became violent — they wanted to manufacture a quick and thoughless “People Power” based on emotions, inaccurate info and faulty accusations.
I disapprove of any illegal method of removing GMA.
istambay,
what we are talking about is how to get the complaint to the Senate! the needed 2/3 to convict gloria is available in the Senate!
1/3 suntok sa buwan? thats how it looked before erap was impeached
di lang masipag, resourceful, diligent at creative yung mga idolo nyong ‘united opposition’
“and those of you saying lobby your congress in the province, ha! have you tried that? have anyone tried that? unless you are filthy rich or one of the backers of that tongresman, then he will listen to you. otherwise it is what they say “suntok sa buwanâ€Â.”
teka teka, sino ba ang gustong mag-impeach?
yun nga eh, wala pang gumagawa.
besides, kaya nga the need to lobby! paano na-impeach si erap nuon?
take note my friend, 1/3 is not even a majority! even if the 2/3 say otherwise, a 1/3 vote to impeach is enough!
talagang di lang masipag, resourceful, diligent at creative yung mga idolo nyong ‘united opposition’
“talagang di lang masipag, resourceful, diligent at creative yung mga idolo nyong ‘united opposition’”
–scalia, maybe the minority should have retained your services and expertise on this impeachment. there will be next year and i bet manolo will be sure to tap your talent. and how dumb are those in the minority not to think of things you already knew!
maybe JDV is losning his touch on those backroom dealings. or maybe they just did not try hard anough and done their homeworks as you have suggested.
there will be next time as long as gma is still in malacanang, and if she does not declare some form of martial before 2010.
“I disapprove of the illegal method of removing Erap.”
“I disapprove of any illegal method of removing GMA.”
— i guess you also disapprove of marcos’ method of removal? the EDSA I is actually bad? never thought of that! hey maybe we would have been better off with imelda running pinas at present. never thought of that too! MARCOS! MARCOS PA RIN!
“In other words: With the President’s crafty refusal to be held to account in any serious form, and with her regularly spending as much as P100 million to buy what former House speaker Jose de Venecia Jr. calls “legal protection,†the sword of impeachment turns out to be made of plastic.”
from:PDI editorial 11/28.2008
istambay,
I’m really wondering about your abilities.
In case you didn’t know, the country was under a military dictatorship during Marcos and was/is under a functioning democracy during Erap and GMA.
Gee — a PDI editorial that comes up with a P100m figure and cites JDV as their credible source. Whew! Powerful stuff…..
“I’m really wondering about your abilities.”
–hmm…let us worry about yours and not mine please! marcos times we were under military dictatorship? reallyyyy??? never thought of that!
thanks for the reminder, will keep that in mind.
and i’d rather belief PDI over gma and her minions.
now i bet you’d rather have it the other way instead.
ooppps…”rather believe” ……
istambay_sakalye :
“–scalia, maybe the minority should have retained your services and expertise on this impeachment.”
yes, they should have.
pero knowing the ‘united opposition’ wag na lang.
“there will be next year and i bet manolo will be sure to tap your talent.”
i doubt it. pero no need to tap my services. they just have to read my posts here to get ideas
“and how dumb are those in the minority not to think of things you already knew!”
oh yes they are really dumb! nakaupo pa rin si gloria!
why don’t you blame them, just for once? for consistently blowing impeachment chances. starting with ‘Hello Garci’
“maybe JDV is losning his touch on those backroom dealings. or maybe they just did not try hard anough and done their homeworks as you have suggested.
oh yes. JDV is supposed to be producing a Chavit result, but what happened?
pero malay mo. may milagrong mangyari sa plenary
“there will be next time as long as gma is still in malacanang, and if she does not declare some form of martial before 2010.”
again – read the constitution. its more difficult to declare martial law now
“again – read the constitution. its more difficult to declare martial law now”
–again i don’t underestimate gma and co.. nothing is impossible. she has already pulled off so many things that seemed impossible to many. talo pa ni gma si david blaine, master magician and maybe Jesus Christ! gma and her minions already performed so many miracles that I am starting to believe pablo garcia that gma is like Jesus Christ. di ba dati gusto lang ni ate glo macompare kay ate guy, the superstar? ngayon Jesus Christ superstar na!
wala na talagang kapa-kapanalo ang mga idolo ko sa united oposisyon! k lang.
I just wanted to make sure that this headline got the attention it deserves.
“At least six out of 10 Filipinos disapproved of Charter change.”
I hope we can all know that PDI is lying here.
The questionaire asked if people agree that GMA should extend her term past 2010 by using Chacha to do so.
Duh. Gee, we all agree that this is not acceptable.
But why do these groups keep saying that poeple don’t agree with Chacha? Why do they want to pretend that the majoirty is anti-chacha?
Why be anti-progress???
Just what is the driving force for these people after all???
the real problem with cha cha is not with cha cha itself but with the people behind, pushing for cha cha. they have zero credibility! people just do not trust gma and her minions.
it is gma that is holding the county’s progress hostage. as long as gma is in power cha cha will be opposed by the citizenry.
again, zero credibility! worse than marcos!
and some of you still wonder why people are opposed to cha cha. DUH!
Geo and anthony,
I find it so difficult to communicate with you guys. I asked you questions, you answer the question with your favorite spins which we heard already, repeatedly, its becoming so boring, and they’re not even answers to the specific question at all but explanations of your views not related to the question I was asking you.
Geo, since their is no yes answer from you as to whether you are going out in the street if chacha allows gloria to hold on to power then you forfeit your chance to be a winner, heheh.
Which means your answer is no. You are not going out in the street if chacha allows gloria to hold on to power. Which means you are in favor of a gloria-forever scenario.
That’s the beauty of dialogues in forums like this. It makes things clearer and clearer.
Bert,
no no no. for the nth time i am not saying that i won’t go out if gloria extends.
because its very very certain that gloria will not stay beyond June 30, 2010
so I chose not to answer a very hypothetical question, since it won’t happen in the first place
just because i didn’t answer your question does not mean that i am already what you want to think i am – for gloria beyond 2010. ano ka ba?
please don’t put words into my mouth (or words into my comments)
you are really paranoid, aren’t you? that fact gets to be clearer and clearer
“no no no. for the nth time i am not saying that i won’t go out if gloria extends.
because its very very certain that gloria will not stay beyond June 30, 2010
so I chose not to answer a very hypothetical question, since it won’t happen in the first place”
–talking about being hypothetical! any proof that gma will not stay beyond 2010?her words?the constitution?when was the last time she respected the law of the land. yeah, when it’s to her side or convenience.
Bert,
Sorry, but you don’t ask very good questions sometimes. And you don’t seem to understand simple answers. So what am I supposed to do?
You are asking me if I’ll go to the street if Chacha is passed and if GMA stays on past 2010, right?
That’s a bad question. The only way that would happen is if the people — via plebescite — VOTE TO SPECIFICALLY HAVE GMA STAY ON. (And the people won’t do that!)
So why would I take the street if the majority of Congress, the majority of the SC and a majority of the population all actually vote for something? (But the people won’t do that!)
Another question might be (I’m trying to figure out what you are aiming for) —
If GMA stays on past 2010 via illegal, unconstitutional methods, would I take to the streets? The answer is yes.
Since a GMA-extending Chacha proposal will never pass, and since that means that GMA would have to stay in power only through illegal means, I can say that I would take to the streets if GMA stays on past 2010.
Is that want you wanted me to say so desperately???
Geo,
We are going full-circle with this chacha discussion, and nothing is resolved.
Pls. don’t try so hard figuring out any hint of an aim…there is no aim.
It’s as simple as these:
I’m not in favor of chacha now for reasons very clearly stated already. I am opposing it now, and I will vigorously oppose any such attempt to ram it into our throat later.
You are in favor of it, asap you said, for reasons which are the same as that being spoused by some administration people who are the main pushers of this chacha attempt. It will not be too hard for you to swallow. I’m sure you are going to push vigorously for it as well.
As to whether what role GMA will be playing in this chacha ballroom we have yet to see. Suffice it to say that I think she’ll be dancing in it, while you think she’ll just be a bench-warmer.
Let’s wait for events to unfold so we can see how this matter will be resolved. Ok?
Bert,
We’re not going in circles, Bert, you are.
In your previous post, you accused me of wanting “gloria forever”. It was once again a mischaracterization of my stance. — I do not want GMA after 2010.
Now you are calling me gullible, easily swallowing some stories from the admin types.
I must reiterate that the calls for amending the Constitution have come from many different quarters and for many years. Chacha isn’t an admin idea…it’s a good idea with wide acceptance.
I also remind you that I’d like the PROCESS to start asap…but that I’m not in favor of rushing anything through. I am also open to the idea of a Concon.
What I am AGAINST is the distortion that the vocal minority is creating and the continued anti-progress actions which they take. In my opinion, they are causing confusion for Filipinos and are damaging the country’s image abroad.
So while you and I may wait and see what happens in the future, there are some who are using this bogus “Gloria-Forever!” fear-mongering in order to justify their calls for ousting GMA unconstitutionally. And they are going to the streets.
istambay_sakalye :
“–talking about being hypothetical! any proof that gma will not stay beyond 2010?her words?the constitution?when was the last time she respected the law of the land. yeah, when it’s to her side or convenience.”
Exhibit A of paranoia.
We are talking of the Constitution here, my friend.
Not just a mere law of the land.
The Constitution.
The past is past my friend. You are resurrecting the ghosts of martial law on your own.
Anyway its your life. I have no right to compel you not to be paranoid
anthony,
It’s comforting to not be standing alone. I’m grateful for your presence…
…and for your presence of mind…..
Bert,
“I’m not in favor of chacha now for reasons very clearly stated already. I am opposing it now, and I will vigorously oppose any such attempt to ram it into our throat later.”
again, for the nth time – if you really knew what it would take for an amendment to be ratified by 2009, you will not be paranoid
and to stress the point – cha cha is not just about term extensions! you have been reminded of that so many times!
“Let’s wait for events to unfold so we can see how this matter will be resolved. Ok?”
Exactly! That’s precisely for you and the rest who are paranoid on gloria-beyond-2010!
Take note, you are the ones insisting that gloria will stay beyond 2010.
We are very certain that gloria will go in 2010, as that is commanded by the Constitution
Again, a chacha can extend a President’s term, but only gloria’s successor, not her, can benefit from it! (not that an amendment of extension can be in place before 2010)
oh yes, lets wait and see! for the meantime, please stop manifesting your paranoia
read the Constitution
oh yes! cha cha will continue, but any amendment for extensions will not be enjoyed by gloria.
to repeat – cha cha is not just about term extensions
to repeat – read the Constitution, so you’ll see that it needs amendments as early as the day it was ratified in 1987!
Geo,
thanks.
im just as grateful that you reminded a historian that he is going beyond a mere chronicle of events
“Let’s wait for events to unfold so we can see how this matter will be resolved. Ok?” bert
now bert you’re getting confused again. you’re not supposed to say that. you’re in category no. 2 remember?
“1. the pro-gloria/anti-anti, move on,
pro-gloria-but-very embarrass-to-admit/I’m-no-
hypocrite-but-I-am, I’m-pro-gloria-because I
love my country group
2. the anti-gloria because I love my country group”
“We are talking of the Constitution here, my friend. ”
–are you sure you are not gma? because i’m pretty sure you, my friend, and gma have a very different take on what a constitution is. for you it is the supreme law of the land, while for gma and her minions its just one of the obstacle, that’s she has to overcome to rule past 2010. and that will be taken care of when several justices retires and she gets to appoint, from the nominees JBC will send her. of course, she will appoint someone who share her so called ideology, or someone with close ties to her or mike. not just one but several, enough numbers to tilt the balance and objectivity of the institution to her favor.
so as much as you probably treat the constitution as the bible of lawyers, i doubt gma and her minions shares your attitude. just look back how she would try and try to go around the constitution to serve her own convenience and purpose.
“3:41AM Officials quit over India attacks” –PDI
–will a or any filipino official will ever do this? just thinking out loud. someday maybe.
Don’t worry, grd, they have the number…but we have the people. I think that’s comforting enough.
Do you really think Geo is right on this? And we are wrong?
Just the same, I believe our people and country still worth fighting for. We are not giving up just yet.
btw grd, which category do you belong?
as you know, there was that fable about the birds and the beasts and the bats in between.
no, please, there is no insinuation here, just pure curiousity. with all honesty.
So Geo and Anthony are still ramming everybody with the idea that Gloria has no chance to stay beyond 2010?
These two should be commended for their dogged determination!
What will you do if GMA stays beyond 2010? Their answer is: cannot be! The constitution is just too difficult to change for that! Right.
How about saying, “then I will have been proven wrong”? We’re in a way the same, I would like to be proven wrong too but I would like to err on the side of caution.
Jon,
You wrote: “I would like to err on the side of caution.”
And your solution, as you have written, is to oust the President and install someone you like.
Boy, that sure is being “cautious”!!!
Yeah, a minority shutting down a country is a good idea…just look at Thailand!
In the beginning, I had high hopes in Gloria (she’s a bright economist, already rich so no more stealing, etc.), but she changed for the worse. If my girlfriend also cheated on me, then I’ll definitely dump her just like how I dump Gloria.
I can see you still trust her, there’s nothing shameful in that Geo.
Btw, I won’t mind if Gloria resigns and Noli takes her place as the constitution says.
Jon,
Wanting reforms — including with the Constitution itself — has nothing to do with trusting GMA or not.
Senate Minority Leader Pimentel and Communist Party List Teddy Casino also want Chacha.
You already tried — and failed — to distort my views earlier in this same thread. No need to go there again.
BTW, you never answered a bunch of my questions…one of which was: So who do you want to take over?
Jon,
Ahh, Noli…and you note the constitution as if you are respecting it.
But GMA will not resign, as you know. So, as you have already said, you would therefore like to oust her. Which, of course is unconstitutional.
Meanwhile, the minority group you would ally with to topple GMA contains many elements who don’t want Noli, nor Enrile, not Nograles. They have their own solutions. Will they listen to you? Are they committed to the Constitution?
Seems to me that Chacha is just an excuse for you; you’re only interested in “oust na, now na!”.
“BTW, you never answered a bunch of my questions…one of which was: So who do you want to take over?”-Geo asking Jon
Geo,
That’s quite a question, Geo. Does that mean there is no one deserving to be president but GMA? Is that one reason why chacha is necessary?
Now we are really asking bad questions, heheh.
Geo never answers what he will do if Gloria goes back on her word and remains in power beyond 2010 (same with Scalia). They just point at how difficult it will be to do so.
But I, different from them, answers questions honestly and I express my beliefs straightforwardly.
Who to put in there to replace Gloria? I’ve said it already, I’ve got no solid preference. Somebody who would respect the constitution, I guess. Noli, Enrile, Nograles, Chief Justice?
Gloria does not respect the constitution, as pointed out in this thread and many others, she tries to skirt around it. So why should people give her the protection of the constitution?
Jon,
I’ve answered the question already. I must once again wonder why you are so…so…inattentive.
I repeat: I do not support GMA staying past 2010. I would take to the streets if she did. I am against breaking the law…is that difficult for you to understand? I would like to see institutions strengthened for the long term benefit of the country.
You, my friend, are the one who has no respect for the Constitution, as you are calling for an elected official’s ouster by force. An ouster by a minority, on top of that.
And you don’t even know what would happen after that. Good thinking. Good planning. That ought to make the economy better. Sheesh.
That’s a very good reaction Geo. When Gloria manages to subvert the constitution, you will have a lot of companions!
On the other hand, I would like to be pro-active. I support the removal of Gloria who has no respect for the constitution. She doesn’t deserve the protection the constitution provides for a president.
In my previous illustration, if you fear theat Citibank is going to fold, are you going to do about your money in there or just wait? If you’re not worried, then it’s your decision just to sit back.
I worry that Gloria is untrustworthy, that’s why I do what I do. You don’t worry because you believe it’s too difficult to do (for Gloria to stay beyond 2010) that’s why you say what you say in this thread! That’s quite clear to me.
Jon,
again, for the nth time – if you really knew what it would take for the amendment of extension to take place, you would not be paranoid
again, even if the amendment is in place for 2010, gloria can’t enjoy the extension or the right to run again. those can only be enjoyed by gloria’s successor
and just to set the record straight – when we say we are for cha cha, its not that we are for gloria’s extension (we are not), but we are for the other amendments which have been much delayed since 1987!
Jon,
“When Gloria manages to subvert the constitution, …”
please do not underestimate the defenders of the Constitution!
gloria can subvert the constitution? oh my! the paranoia has taken all of you!
“In my previous illustration, if you fear theat Citibank is going to fold, are you going to do about your money in there or just wait? If you’re not worried, then it’s your decision just to sit back.”
again – Citibank folding up is (was) imminent!
gloria staying beyond 2010 is manifestation of paranoia!
(for one thing, its only 2008! where’s the imminence? not that the amendment for extension is sure)
for your peace of mind, please read the constitution
Anthony, why are you so paranoid about having the Cha-cha before 2010? How about supporting the con-con move at the same time as the 2010 election? We can definitely wait, can’t we?
Having the constitution changed today won’t do us immediate good anyway. Systemic change will not bring in magical gains instantly. I believe we can wait a few more years for Cha-cha. If you can wait out Gloria’s 1.5 years, you definitely can wait Cha-cha in 1.5 years also. Don’t be silly in trying to deny that.
Jon,
“These two should be commended for their dogged determination!”
***clears throat***
excuse me, the paranoid (which includes you) are more dogged in determination!
guess who have been making noise about a gloria extension?
guess who started making the noise?
guess who makes the loudest noise?
so who’s got the “dogged determination”?
we are just reacting to these manifestations of paranoia!
because for us, we just let the constitution take its course (and it will!)
i hope you got that distinction
Do you remember PP1017? That was a proclamation by Gloria Arroyo which was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. How about E0 464? Some parts of that were also deemed unconstitutional.
If Gloria can do that, she can also do some other extra-constitutional things in the future.
I admire your trust in Gloria! But, I beg to differ.
Con-con elections in 2010 together with national & local positions. this should be acceptable to all. at ng mawala na ang paranoia.
grd,
Geo and Anthony keeps on using the word paranoia but it’s actually distrust in Gloria which is the reason. And Con-con election in 2010 is very good.
Jon,
“Anthony, why are you so paranoid about having the Cha-cha before 2010?”
well well look who’s talking! who is noisy on a gloria extension? and for those who are noisy on a gloria extension how can that extension be made possible? for those who are noisy on a gloria extension, only by an amendment before 2010!
“How about supporting the con-con move at the same time as the 2010 election? We can definitely wait, can’t we?”
oh that’s a different tune now!
con-con elections to coincide with the 2010 elections is not a bad idea
“Having the constitution changed today won’t do us immediate good anyway.”
ah no. as geo stated, if the limits on foreign ownerships are relaxed, FDIs will pour in right away!
“Systemic change will not bring in magical gains instantly.”
you are assuming that cha cha is all about term extensions. wrong
“I believe we can wait a few more years for Cha-cha. If you can wait out Gloria’s 1.5 years, you definitely can wait Cha-cha in 1.5 years also. Don’t be silly in trying to deny that.”
my goodness! you’re singing a different tune now!
“Don’t be silly” is actually for you
take note you just mentioned deferring cha cha for the first time
my friend, let me restate to you the ideas you have been bombarded with repeatedly – an amendment cannot be in place before 2010. even if a cha cha is validly convened before 2010, its too late for an amendment for extension to be in place for the 2010 elections!
stated differently – it is possible that the Con Ass is still deliberating on the amendments during the May 2010 elections!
Jon,
“Do you remember PP1017? That was a proclamation by Gloria Arroyo which was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. How about E0 464? Some parts of that were also deemed unconstitutional.”
you don’t get it!
you just witnessed the superiority of the Constitution!
its because the Constitution is superior that the PP107 and EO 464 are declared unconstitutional!
so gloria did not subvert the constitution!
May our brothers be enlightened