Which definition of “hackle” did they have in mind? To insult someone, or be irritated by someone, or chop roughly? Things are so confused and confusing it seems every possible definition fits.
Late last night media was in a frenzy after initial news of a coup plot being discovered. Ricky Carandang immediately blogged about it. Earlier, the possibility that something was up was suggested by Jove Francisco’s account of the President’s impromptu command conference at the Palace. RG Cruz provides a roundup of the alleged plot’s details.
Today, there don’t seem to be very many developments about the story. The police are on heightened alert. But was the plot supposedly uncovered genuine, and if so, to what extent? that remains unanswered. All that’s definite is that the President has canceled her Saturday trip to Baguio. The country’s top brass, however, will all be there. And defensive preparations, almost certainly, have been beefed up by the government: Hillblogger recounts the purchase, under Cory Aquino, of short-range surface to air missiles.
Funny entry of the day: Pinoy Blog Press revolts.
Technorati Tags: military, Philippines
maybe the people investigating and even plotting misheard and the real codename was “heckle”, not “hackle”. and they probably planned something initially like the 1985 PMA “heckling” where some classes paraded with RAM streamers during the graduation/reunion.
(this reminds me of the “bullcap” term used in military circles to refer to their caps, a mangling of the term “ball cap”.)
from news reports its seems you may be right, cruncher.
It looks like Oplan Hackle was discovered because there was a press release! (haha)
M, I would think these guys mean to “raise her hackles”. And then maybe use a “hack” and “hackle” her. But then, they could resort to just “heckling” her. Either way…
Oops! Meant that they could use an ax to “hackle” her. Like what Lizzie Borden did to her father.
from: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Hackle
The hackle is a feather plume (most plumes are made of horsehair) that is attached to the headdress.
In the British Army and the armies of some Commonwealth countries the hackle is worn by some infantry regiments, especially those designated fusilier regiments and those with Scottish and Northern Irish origins. It was commonly attached to the feather bonnet worn by Highland regiments (now usually only worn by drummers, pipers and bandsmen). The colour of the hackle varies from regiment to regiment.
Dansoy, makes sense then, I guess a hackle is the name for the chicken feather plume on the PMA dress uniform headgear?
another preemptive strike or just a reason for gloria not attending the affair (as if she’s obliged to anyway)? the plot, i believe, is a figment of pro-arroyos’ wild (or let me say, shameless) imagination!
two things…
oplan hackle (the plume): i think the pro-arroyo generals would just like to make it appear that intelligent men dubbed the plan. of course the plot would not be traced to them. for all we know, they could have named it “oplan feather duster*†if they wanted to stand up and be recognized for the “gallant†act!
oplan heckle: this is, i think, how the pro-arroyo generals think. direct and straightforward…as the word implies “to ridicule.†if i may just add that it’s just like saying the idiomatic expression, “wave the red flag in front of the BULL.â€Â
…i guess even the “heckels and jeckels†with stars know who’s boss as well as who’s bull!
*Feather Duster – plume used by cadet officers (a PMA cadet’s lingo)
I Think mother nature caused us ot forget about any oplan this weekend…..
You’re right Karl, who would have the “insensitivity” to do anything during this sad time? (It might have saved Gloria again…, sorry for injecting a political thought on this.)
What Filipinos need asap is a righteous leader to set the country in the right course. Mudslides and unneccesary deaths of innocent poor Filipinos are by-products of corrupt government. So we have to do away first with a cheating/fake/corrupt GMArroyo who even shamelessly makes millions of money out of calamities/disasters. She makes money out of those over-priced disaster-related projects (thru her DND Secretary cum Bagman) in the form of at least 30% kickbacks of the project cost. We must support then any Oplan to unseat her.
Any Oplan to unseat the cheating/fake/corrupt GMArroyo must be supported so we can install an honest government to set the country right. If only public money is well spent, government men straight, then mudslides and unneccessary deaths of poor innocent Filipinos could have been avoided. But these corrupt GMA and her gang are even making money out of these disasters by overpricing disaster-related projects and pocketting at least 30% of the project cost. It’s all about greed for money and fake sympathy on TVs. Watch GMA’s expression of relish everytime she announces a big project beceause she knows she’ll make millions again from kickbacks.
Simon, easy lang w/ what we support.you don’t know what is on the other side.
all things considered we are not doing that bad.
we are a country w/ lots of potentials & talents.we really have to make an effort to make things work for us.there are positive signs in the economy that can be used for futher gains.
we are really our worst kalaban.
problems are ment to be solved.the first step in solving problems is about attitude.
Karl, maybe mothernature is reminding us that there are more important things in life.
Joey, You’re right we are our worst kalaban especially if we don’t do anything about the reason for our sad plight as a nation, where everything (cost of living, electricity, water, prices, fares, name it, add crimes and calamities even. there is always political to evry disaster in our country because the government is not spending public funds to honestly prevent or minimize disasters like ensuring that illegal logging does not take place) is rising without end, where taxes (evat) have to be invented and imposed upon the people so GMA will have something to steal, where good men and women are forced to migrate out of exasperation or forced into state of apathy/indifference (Sayang ang bayan natin na ginagawang gatasan lang ng mga politikong gaya ni GMA. Kung niloloko tayo noong time ni Marcos, ngayon nama’y ginagago na tayo ni GMA. I have been silent for the last five years pero sobra na ang pagtitimpi natin. Tayo lang ang ma ha high blood if we don’t do anything and sane as we are, we can’t forever ignore the realities but must confront the demon head on). These should not have happened if only we have an honest government we can be proud of. So any alternative to GMA should be better. Evil will always thrive if good men don’t do anything to end evil. Evil (GMA) is an objective reality and is not just a matter of attitude. Not acting in the face of evil is understandable though not pardonable if an individual is benefitting from it (at least he can say it’s for his survival but we know this reasoning is selfish and the very reason why GMA still survives as a fake president. Change your attitude is the argument of unjust rulers to deflect the attention from them who are the real problem.). Not minding the objective problem and arguing that it’s attitude that should only be changed is the same argument Marcos used when he lorded it over us for 20 years and the same argument why corrupt politicians thrive and grow in number in our counrty. Let’s have leaders who walk their talk, who lead by Christian example but let’s first rid ourselves of GMA. Why allow a corrupt/cheating/lying woman to lead us? Any honest Filipino is better than her.
Maybe it should have been called “heckle”
Simon, it’s not enough to be good.you also have be be an enlightened person & be responsible for our ideas.
While it is true that there are many problems.The problems too are a result of decades of mismanagment.No problem in the magnitude as our will be solved by simply eliminating a “personality”.
Everybody fills the pain of thses tough economic times but certainly not everybody arrives to your conclussions.
Maybe insted of pointing fingers & leting our emotions getting the best of us.
We can also squeez our brains to find long term solutions.
Let’s not over simplify things & reduce it to a battle of good & bad.
Because even in the gospel there is a passage that says – the world is for the strong – .
Being “good” but also not prepared emotionaly & intelectualy will not bring any difference.
I would dare to say that what the world really needs are stong wise people who have the courage & perseverance & the wisdom to face life squarely.
I’m not indifferent to the economic difficulties of life.I very well aware that noise & protest adds to the difficulties that we have.
It is a forever universal truth that the right things to do are never easy, never attractive, never popular.
Change happen through time.It can only happen if & when we systematicaly address our problems one by one.It will also happen If we as a people change our attititudes.
Sadly, in this country, talk is cheap.We waist so much time in debate.As if we just like to talk & use issues to get back at people.It’s no wounder that through the years our problems from mole hills have grown to mountains that are even crushing us.
It’s obvious that many of us can’t do things directly.We only look at elections as a means “to get back” at our leaders not the mention the other perkd that come w/ it.
The questions is, what do we do between elections other then protesting on everything & anything.
Do we really get involved in making things work?
Are we insted the “bahala na”?
“taxes (evat) have to be invented and imposed upon the people so GMA will have something to steal.”
“if only we have an honest government we can be proud of. So any alternative to GMA should be better.”
“Evil (GMA)…fake president”
“Why allow a corrupt/cheating/lying woman to lead us? Any honest Filipino is better than her.”
—————————————————-
This point of view is so pervasive, it’s scary. The perception that GMA stole the elections and that the EVAT is just a way to steal money keeps getting repeated by anti-GMA public figures (and repeated through the media) until many citizens believe it.
It seems unimportant that all factual evidence (so far) indicates that GMA did NOT perform massive fraud in the elections and that the EVAT collections (and disbursements) are highly traceable by a paper trail.
So accusations abound, proof is not provided and still the public concludes that Gloria is evil and that ANYbody is better. If she is simply ousted all will be fine…as if decades (and centuries) of problems will suddenly disappear. Heck, just get an “honest Filipino” and nirvana is near.
An honest Filipino — like a different trapo (Drilon, Magsaysay, etc), or maybe Lacson or Erap, or maybe just a junta composed of military deserters and some choice politicians/adventurers like Honasan.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Meanwhile, The Lordess of Evil wakes up early everyday, micromanages the key economic and other reforms, establishes some positive developments…just so she can rip everybody off.
So everyone gather around the fearless oppositionists and pull the plug of a re-energized economy that is slowly-but-noticeably gaining the confidence of the global investors. Who needs foreigners and overseas Pinoys to invest? Who needs the richest of Filipino families and corporations to invest in the Philippines instead of sending their money overseas? Who needs investments to create jobs and expand the middle class?
Nah, the Philippines certainly doesn’t. All the Philippines needs is the black and white “truth”…blessed by Bishop Bacani and the like. Then everything will be perfect…even if the last of the investors and capable entrepreneurs, skilled white-collar workers and businessmen flee the country forever. Because, you know, THEN the poor will finally be saved.
Makes sense to me.
Joey, By the words coming from your mouth (a man’s worth is shown by what comes out from his mouth), it’s now obvious that you are for a strong wise leader regardless of how corrupt he is while I am for a leader who is first and foremost HONEST as experience and wisdom can be learned. Strength and wisdom at the service of a very corrupt leader is the perfect formula for learned corruption and a suppressed miseducated citizenry. A corrupt leader will never put to good use his strength and wisdom. He will only use it to further his self-interests. GMArroyo sadly, however, has neither any of these traits. She is corrupt, manipulative and a hypocrite. And I cannot comprehend how one like you can be supportive of Arroyo as she epitomizes the opposite of your leader model (strong and wise). My thesis is we get rid of Arroyo as a start and then institute institutional changes and put good people in government until every piece of good governance is in place. Genuine changes however can never take place with corrupt leaders in government that’s why removing corrupt leaders is a necessary beginning. And you Joey (since you also manifest of being supportive of the right things to do)can take part in this rebuilding process unless you deny Arroyo is corrupt in which case your deductive/inductive reasoning becomes questionable and you become counterproductive to the whole process. The longer a fake leader like Arroyo remains in office the longer genuine changes can materialize. How can we have honest/good cops, honest BIR, honest judges/justices, honest congressmen/senators, honest men and women in government with a corrupt GMA acting as a fake president? Followers only follow what their leader does. (Just see how jueteng can suddenly stop in one area if all policemen/local leaders are ordered to end it. The problem is the order is only cosmetic and short-lived on the part of GMA because she is by nature corrupt. Didn’t you observe this Joey? Do you see how an honest leader (as GMA roleplayed at times even if only to deceive the people) can make a difference?) Put an honest leader and you immediately solve 50% of the problem and then you proceed from there in doing the rest of what’s to be changed. That’s why, GMA must first be removed if we are to move forward. Any Oplan to remove her is therefore moral and the right thing to do.
Geo, in your opinion, what would you consider as a “factual evidence” to convict Gloria for of election fraud, or Garci for the same infraction?
“Geo, in your opinion, what would you consider as a “factual evidence†to convict Gloria for of election fraud, or Garci for the same infraction?”
Jon,
A recount would be the optimal solution.
The closest thing we can now get to that is Legarda’s recount, in which both sides have said they are reading and recording the Presidential tallies as well. The outcome of PET’s review is pending (but due soon).
I’ve often found it strange that the opposition never made much noise about Loren’s protest (she in fact had trouble raising money!).
I also noted that the opposition spent endless hours on TV but never revealed a compelling piece of evidence. Are we supposed to believe that they have some super-secret smoking gun hidden away somewhere?
On top of it all, there wasn’t a peep from the opposition’s camps nor the domestic (including the CBC) and international poll-watchers before, during or after the elections.
Then came the Garci Tapes.
OK, maybe she got caught and Garci and his pals were incredibly stealthy in their misdoings. It’s certainly possible. But so too is the possibility that those tapes were doctored.
I personally tried to remain neutral at that time and wanted/waited for more concrete evidence to appear. And here we are 8 months later and wala.
That’s why I still want to see what comes out of PET’s recount of the VP vote.
Many luminaries, though, have jumped on the No More Gloria bandwagon and overtly support those who say they know the truth (or just say themselves that THEY know the truth). So we get B&W…which later gets closer to the far left, to Lacson, to Erap or whomever.
Meanwhile, the general public reads the papers and watches TV and is repeatedly told that Gloria and Garci cheated. The B&W and oppositionists keep hammering away at that claim and give it the aura of legitimacy…of truth…..
It is this background which gives the coup d’etat types enough space to try to make their move. And destabilization thrives. And investors stay cautious. Worse yet, if a coup is actually launched, say bye-bye to a chance to get out of this economic mess…and maybe even help lift the lives of many of the countriy’s citizens…because that’s when the investors will turn their backs and give up on the Philippines. Just like many migrated Pinoys have already done.
All of this because we are asked to believe the claims that GMA cheated even though we are still awaiting proof that this is so. Crazy. Is it really worth sacrificing the country’s future based on a claim that has yet to be substantiated?
Is that smart?
Isn’t it wiser to demand proof, to patiently wait for it, and to just get on with business until and unless that poof is delivered?
Or are rumored and possibly actual coups better? Maybe now it can be unlucky number “13 coup attempts in 20 years” that the Philippines can get tagged with? Great. Genius. “Come visit and invest in the Philippines!” Yeah, right.
So Jon, what factual evidence do YOU need to justify launching the country on a disaster course?
Geo, you still bring me back to a question I asked before. How should Nixon have been handled?
mlq3,
My previous response was one of my posts that never saw the light of your blog. Why is that? Lots of delays and dropped posts. Is the filter over-filtering?
Anyway, the easy response is: Nixon’s situation in the US then is irrelevant to today’s Philippines.
Nixon was caught covering up a proven crime. If you are implying that GMA be ousted for cover-up, then OK, that would be a route for her forced exit. But where is the factual evidence of a cover-up? You know, the kind that could stand up in any legal court. And actually — where is the initial, proven crime?
If I remember correctly, though, your post was about the economy under Nixon (yes, just looked it up). Well, I still don’t see the relevance; everything was different then in the US vis-a-vis today’s Philippines and today’s global economy.
By the way, you also later wrote in that same thread:
“…after edsa we experienced a period of unprecedented growth. whether or not it was sustainable, we will never know. the putsches killed the momentum, not cory, not our democracy. it was the putschists. they provoked a period of uncertainty and reaction.”
And that’s exactly what some of us are worried about right now.
Especially as the world is moving faster, is much more competitive…and could well by-pass the Philippines without shedding a tear. This country needs to get its debt down, needs foreign investment, needs tourism, needs to export…it needs the world to shed it’s perception of an unstable and unreliable global partner. Conversely, the world can do quite well, thank you, without the Philippines.
There really needs to be an overwhelmingly good reason to have constant destabilization (and puschists running around using the chaos/dark clouds for cover) before the country relinquishes its opportunity to take advantage of international trends and opportunities.
Is this anti-Gloria barrage of noise (sans hard evidence, mind you) such a good enough reason? Really? Sure? Are you willing to gamble everyone’s future for your B&W cause? Are you willing to gamble everyone’s livelihood in the hopes that a post-GMA regime will be better? Has B&W even received a sizeable mandate from the general population to represent it? Have the citizens authorized the B&W to take such gambles on their behalf?
Geo, I’ve stated my stand already before. The impeachment process could have gotten Gloria closure but her actions which “looked like” coverup acts convicted her of wrongdoing in the people’s view (including mine). And yes, it’s worth betting my future with somebody else who is more transparent and truthful than Gloria.
geo, your comments keep getting detained by the spam filter. for some reason sometimes they contain spam comments like your comment above, i have no idea why on earth you’d end up with texas holdem snippets in your comments.
As for Legarda’s protest, I’m puzzled too why the opposition is letting her go by her lonesome? Are they afraid that Gloria really won? Have Loren lost the support of the opposition? Do they think that it’s a deadend?
If it is true that even the presidential votes are recounted, then I agree that it could also close this long running drama of voting, protests, accussations, and coverups. The question that bugs me though is, isn’t it illegal to do that? Only the VP count is contested and paid for by Loren’s camp. Whatever comes out of the presidential recount will not be “official”.
Another issue Loren’s camp brought up is the substitution of ERs. The issue is a valid one. If serial numbers match but the counts shown in them are not, then something is amiss, isn’t it? If the Comelec’s copy (given to opposition and held by Loren), and Namfrel’s copy matches but that in the Congress’ copy does not, then the conclusion is obvious that there was substitution. Will you agree? Does the administration have the capability to do it? I believe it does. So even this avenue to get closure is still muddled. Gloria’s woes until this day she caused herself.
Jon,
“Looked like”? That’s not very compelling. It certainly doesn’t justify destroying the country, does it?
The impeachment process was a circus. But that shouldn’t be surprising — it’s a political exercise. The pro-admin House (with a majority) was determined not to let the process reach the anti-admin Senate. That’s how it works.
This isn’t much different than when the pro-admin Senate (with a majority) stopped the impeachment process vs Erap in it’s tracks by voting down the motion to open the second envelope. That’s how it works.
However, in GMA’s case, the opposition has had ample opportunity to show the world its compelling evidence. It hasn’t. In fact, the opposition chose to initially go to the streets with its accusations…by-passing the stage wherein a rational, well-organized presentation of hard evidence is made. But the general public chose not to follow them to the streets (the oppositionists will tell us that was because the public is apathetic; but maybe the public was saying it just doesn’t want another EDSA, no?). This pre-occupation with the desire to foment another EDSA then caught up with the oppositionists in the formal impeachment proceedings — where they were late, lazy, sloppy and amateurish…but full of hot air.
So on the one side is the government, which still can claim it has the legal mandate (until and unless proven otherwise) and on the other side is the opposition bent on bringing down the regime (for the sake of “truth”, of course…not for any self-interest or vested interest, right?).
The opposition then went fishing. Lots of baiting; nothing backed by evidence. The Senate stopped legislating (the worse performance in the history of the Senate in the Philippines) and hid behind their immunity to lob verbal bombs at the admin. Once this got really out of hand, we got EO464. The admin’s position was that accusations and corresponding proof should be coursed through the proper body — the Ombudsman…and that the Senate had ceased performing it’s primary function. That is actually correct; the Senate isn’t a judge or a prosecutor…it’s a law-maker. That’s how it works.
Meanwhile, the demonstrators were breaking the law in many instances. They did not always follow the legal permit procedures. In some cases, they got violent…or at least, rowdy. They also sometimes went where they are specifically not allowed to go.
Now it’s true that protesters in democracies around the world demonstrate without permits or hold their demonstrations in banned areas. But they usually get arrested for doing so. When they demonstrate peacefully, they are typically arrested and then let go. They get their point across via civil disobedience. If they get violent or attempt to force their way to banned areas, though, they are flirting with the prospect of getting hit with more serious charges. That’s how it works.
Now, Jon, you describe all of this as what “looks like” a cover-up. But it’s the law.
Ahhh, that’s when the B&W tells us that the law is not supreme; that the “truth” is the only law that counts. Add some activist Bishops and it’s now God’s Truth which is being dictatorially suppressed. Never mind that the LP (the core of the B&W) has always stated that it is firmly for the maintenance of the rule of law…..
In this environment — with one group annointing and blessing itself as being above the laws of the land (which many in this group have themselves written/legislated) — the other group uses the levers of the the law and of politics to fight back. That’s how it works.
The admin has arguably operated within the limits of the law. If it hasn’t, take the complaint to the courts and prove that they haven’t. That’s how it works.
And I haven’t seen mass jailings, Congress’ doors nailed shut, media being shut down, martial law or any of that. Just politians like Rep Suplico saying that “this and that shows us that martial law is imminent”.
But, Jon, your “views” are nonetheless different than mine. That’s your right. But when the politicians and groups like B&W keep calling for going against the law, start aligning themselves with extremeist groups, engage with entities like Lacson, Honasan and Erap, keep roiling the waters and giving puschists plenty of “justification” for a coup d’etat, well…that’s going too far.
Especially when it starts to bring down the economy when the economy has to be the country’s savior. The people do NOT want a coup. They do NOT want the constitution to be usurped. They DO want more jobs.
Are you and, more importantly, those who you support speaking for these citizens? You have a right to vote; that’s how you express your views. Calling for a government overthrow is NOT your right…unless you have hard evidence that the government has lied, cheated and/or stolen.
The continuing calls for radical, extra- or non-constitutional change without such evidence is called sedition…or at least inciting sedition. Armed force personnel deserting their post and calling for an overthrow is mutiny. Plotting to overthrow the government is conspiracy. Concrete actions to overthrow the government is rebellion. That’s how it works.
Jon,
I’ve never maintained that Gloria is definitely not guilty; I’ve only maintained that there is a need for proof that she did before anything extreme can happen.
Though Legarda’s recount can’t “officially” be used as a recount of the Presidential votes, if she proves that the admin (specifically, the Prez and VP election camps) substitued fraudulent ERs and/or COCs, Gloria should definitely go. I’m sure we can both agree on that.
Meanwhile, you wrote: “Gloria’s woes until this day she caused herself.” See? You are certain that she cheated and you are looking at everything through this prism…regardless of any objective, factual, intellectually valid or legal process which supports such a premise.
Step back, seperate the facts from the noise, watch Loren’s recount…and avoid leaping to a firm conclusion. Isn’t that what intelligent, non-agenda-driven good people are supposed to do? Isn’t that the obligation of a citizen who cares about the country and its future?
That’s what I’ve been advocating all along.
Stop the noise; find the facts. I think it’s a reasonable stance.
The opposition has not been doing this, have they? And their lack of support for Legarda (the avenue for obtaining factual evidence) is telling, isn’t it?
Geo,
Now you see that we are not in the court of law. I said “looked like” because I was speaking in my own point of view (from outside of the Philippines). It’s not for me to prove that Gloria cheated but as I see things from where I am, she didn’t handle the situation correctly, and she comes out as somebody who is hiding behind her powers. Something that an elected president shouldn’t do.
(1) Garci Tapes – She acknowledged speaking to a Comelec commissioner and said sorry for lapse of judgement. What am I to make of it? Just accept it and move on? Not to me, maybe to you it is.
(2) Impeachment Process – She killed it by using her allies in congress. Yes it is a political undertaking but was she able to prove herself clean? No, it again let people who are interested to know some truths hanging.
(3) Juggling of funds to support her election – She has supported those who have some knowledge by not allowing them to testify by issuing a Presidential EO.
I said “looked like” because I personally have no proofs. But as president she should answer these serious questions. She did not, she dodged them. I cannot trust somebody who does that.
If we allow Gloria to continue without answering these questions, all will be forgotten and she was guilty, she’s going to get away with it. That’s unacceptable.
Unfortunately, Jon, this country is run under the constitution and a body of laws. The law matters a lot.
GMA is “hiding behind her powers” is exactly what the oppositionists are wanting you and me to believe. And it is the constant repetition of this line (amplified by a mostly willing media which thrives in contentious times) that gives the puschists the justification they want.
Like you, I don’t want to be manipulated by the admin. But I also don’t want to be manipulated by the opposition.
1. Garci Tapes — She said that wasn’t an accurate portrayal of any conversation she had. She admitted talking to a Comelec official and that she was wrong for doing so. She cliams she was monitoring her votes in the hope of spotting any cheating against her (wouldn’t you do that?). But she emphasized that she in no way defrauded the election process. That’s her direct response to this.
These tapes are illegal and were submitted by confirmed anti-Arroyo types. Without the original tapes and/or the tapper himself, the veracity of the recordings are impossible to confirm. They are also patently illegal.
What should you make of them? That they are inconclusive. Any objective third party would tell you so. The point is: don’t jump to conclusions.
But if you really, really want to try to discern something from the tapes, you need to spend an equal amount of intellectual energy contemplating the idea that these tapes are doctored…and then try to list down the probable parties who could, would and would want to wiretap Garci/Gloria/whomever and to bring down the administration. That would be the basis for coming to one or more plausible theories (theories, not facts!)…including the one that Gloria got caught cheating.
Have you performed this exercise?
2. Impeachment Process — Yes, a political exercise performed legally. Meanwhile, if the tapes were doctored, if the elections were clean, if the opposition has zero proof, if Gloria is indeed clean, how can she prove herself to be innocent? The only proof is in the ballot boxes (where the opposition has been reluctant to aggressively look).
But letting the impeachment go to the Senate — where the political process is also the rule — so that the majority of anti-GMA types could oust her by a show of hands and without adequate proof…would you do that if you were her and you were innocent? I doubt it. Not if you were innocent and had a legally valid process that could stop it.
Note that Defensor offered the bishops on national tv to have a truth commission staffed solely by the bishops. No one took him up on that offer.
Now if Gloria actually performed massive fraud; is guilty, she would take the exact same action — using her House allies to block the impeachment from going to the Senate.
Result? Inconclusive.
How to settle this? Look at the ballot boxes. Have a truth comission performed by mutually acceptable third parties. The problem is that anyone who isn’t anti-Gloria is considered by the oppositionists to be tainted, compromised. Just look at Davide and Abueva and how they’ve been treated by their “friends” who claim that they always respected these gentlemen…but who now use terms like “clown”, etc.
3. Juggling of Funds — An accusation. The Senate tried once again to become prosecutors and judges and overstepped their legislative boundaries. Finally Drillon succumbed to the reality that these types of accusations must be pursued by the Ombudsman and proven through the paper trail that exists…not by some bogus “in search of legislation” farce. I saw him on a news clip today, handing over the Senate Committee’s findings, notes, etc to the Ombudsman. That’s how it works.
EO464 was in place long before this latest accusation popped up. The admin has said that they are fine with having executives go in front of ther Senate for issues relating to the budget or to legislation. But if the Senators just sit there and insult and accuse and pass no laws, then forget it. The Senate is not the Ombudsman; the Senate is the Senate and the Ombudsman is the Ombudsman. That’s how it works.
If Gloria is innocent, it’s extremely hard to prove it. That’s why the burden of proof is on the accuser. If she is guilty, do the recount and take your case to the Ombudsman.
But until and unless something concrete comes up, isn’t it foolish to sacrifice the well-being of the country, to offer space wherein the puschists can operate and to jump to intellectually feeble conclusions?
The real “tipping point” we should all be concerned about is the economy’s. The opposition is succeeding at pushing the economy towards regression (collapse?) while the admin is succeeding at pushing the economy forward. If everyone just follows the laws and the legal procedures/channels, the economy can surge forward. Kind of a good reason to take an intellectually neutral position and to demand proof that GMA is a fraud rather than jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions and bringing the whole house down, no?
Geo, I believe you are a knowledgeable man by the way you write and you’re bent on maintaining the proposition that GMA is innocent unless proven otherwise and until that day comes, Filipinos should be content with GMA. But if you’re an independent-minded and objective man or someone reasonable as you sometimes project in your writing, Have you tried also reasoning out the other way around.. what have GMA done wrong against democracy.. against the Constitution? Can you at least find fault in her or none at all? Or is she your perfect president? Do you find her not corrupt (Can you answer this last question pls if you’re not poised to answer the rest)?
Proofs, what are they?
Under pressure (she tried to delay this but feeling the heat and sensing her end if she continued her deafening silence) She admitted talking to a Comelec official (Garci in all probability and under the ordinary rules in evidence, beyond reosonable doubt is not the quantum of evidence needed here, only subsantial evidence) at the height of the elections and she was sorry for it (lapse in her judgment as her lawyer tried to sophisticatedly sugarcoat what is plain and simple cheating?) and made an admission against her interest.
Gloria vowed to ferret out the TRUTH and agreed with the Bishops’ recommendation. Months passed (and because the heat of the monent had died done), But she did not because that TRUTH would point out to her and that would be her end. Geo, What do you make out of a lying Gloria? Until now she has not lifted an honest finger to find out the truth? What do you say Geo? It’s alright to go back against one’s word of honor, against one’s national pledge. But is she capable of honor? Or has she not made fools out of the Filipinos all along hoping the shortness of memory will overtake the Filipinos coupled with other good news and bad news to cloud her guilt? Can’t you see Geo na ginagawa na tayong gago ni Gloria? Or you would rather go through the due process dictated by Gloria that would end either in her co-conspirators-dominated congress or her stooges in the Supreme Court?
Where was Garci all the time? Couldn’t locate Garci because Gloria and her conspirators hid him from the reach of the long arms of the law and justice. In this case, she obstructed the administration of justice using the government machinery (military, national and local government units, DOJ, NBI, police, Immigration, even making use of bogus abu sayyaff men allegedly protecting him). What Gloria is transforming the government into is reminiscent of what Marcos did. The longer Gloria holds on to power, the more prostituted our government will become. Shall we allow that to happen again? It’s unbelievable how GARCI could escape the dragnet of our military and police? If they can easily recapture fugitive mutineers, I could not comprehend how GARCI, not so gifted with an able body, could elude them until he voluntarily surfaced out? Garci on his own sweet time surfaced out 6 months later (after the Gloria Congress has killed the impeachment proceedings against Gloria) under the full protection of Gloria’s congressmen and the military and police never put him under arrest despite the fact that he made a mockery out of our democratic processes. How was this made possible Geo? If you were an honest and a constitutional president, can you allow this to happen? Gloria has undermined our democratic and justice system. And what she promoted and continues to promote was the height of obstruction of justice in the search of a suspect in a heinous crime. Is this what you like Geo would happen to our justice and democratic system.
Where is Bolante? Gloria’s operator in the Agriculture Dept to misuse for electioneering P700 million plus DA budget for bogus fertilizer purchase. At the height of investigation and like Garci, She can again nowehere to be found. What has Gloria made out of our democratic services/ Why can’t she allow Bolante to just appear in the investigation and to tell the truth if she is not hiding any falsity? Or are they not done yet with scriptwriting, falsifying documents and rehearsing? Can you not see Geo how Gloria is obstructing justice. Is this how an honest public servant should act?
Garci and Bolante and Gloria are hiding criminal acts, that’s why they can’t face in conscience democratic investigations which are part and parcel of checks and balances in a democracy. What Gloria is slowly creating is quasi-dictatorship and if we don’t decisively act, we shall be seeing a full party dictatorship in our country.
Geo, if you’re not a paid Gloria supporter or one who benefits from her rule, just honestly look around you and see the worsening decadence of our government and the nation during Gloria’s 5 year rule. See how crimes are rising and threatening everybody including our children. A corrupt leader cant rule effectively and restore peace and order in the country because she has no moral authority and resolve to do so. Her mind is set on what projects she can make money again and what to share with her gang. Remember Geo in the truth of the saying that where there is smoke there is fire. Corruption charges against her won’t last if the same have no basis. But they have Geo, and, if unlike Gloria whom you are supporting in your comments, you’re honest in your heart, you’ll see in time the corruption and its smoke and fire. Just look around you and don’t wait for Gloria to show you the reasons.
A national leader like Gloria who is corrupt and dishonest has no other option but to create a one party dictatorship against the Filipino people who have waken up to her shenaniganism in government.
Simon,
That’s a lot to respond to…but I’ll try (though I’ve killed hours today so far writing about this stuff).
First of all, I am not in any way related to Gloria other than we went to the same school during dirrent times. And I’m not a rah-rah alumnus type who cares about stuff like that. I have never received a peso from her or her administartion or the government in general. I have never worked on her — or anyone else’s — campaign.
I don’t think that GMA is “a perfect president”. Of course, I don’t believe there are any…ever…anywhere. I’m pro-Philippines, not pro-Gloria (though I admit I am pro her agenda/2004 platform…just like the LP was, including Drillon and Abad). I care about my business and I’d like to hire more white collar, middle class Pinoys…but I hesitate to because of all of this instability. I want to start another business and bring jobs to hundreds and maybe thousands of white collar, middle class Pinoys…but the foreign buyers are too scared to commit to the program. I care about my children and I want them to be able to make a living here. I believe in meritocracy, democracy and the decntralization of power. I am an unabashed supporter of expanding the middle class around the world…I am loyal to them and I believe that a large middle class is the beggining to solving mass poverty (we take the biggest burden of the taxes which are then used for education and infrastructure). I deal with facts and measurable, controlled systems. I believe that creating quality is a long-term, painful, yet necessary process.
Perhaps my previous post (#29, which was posted at the same time as your #30) addresses some of your concerns. Rather than repeat my views, I’ll try to expand on them.
Basically, though, all your words were given with the premise that GMA definitely cheated (and worse). So when you ask me how I can XYZ when she cheated, I must again answer that I have no idea if she did or didn’t cheat, lie or steal, that she did or didn’t commit massive electoral fraud, etc. I can only challenge your premise as the “truth”, as it is presently unsupported by any clear evidence.
Your “proof” is all hearsay and conjecture. So yes — I would prefer to go through the legal processes…even though you believe everyone involved is corrupt (more unsubstantiated accusations). I’m certainly not going to take your word for it that everything you wrote is fact (no offense…I’m not taking ANYbody’s fact-less accusations as proof of anything). I reject and suspect anyone who says that their unsubstantiated and/or misinformed conclusions are “the truth”.
All the oppositionists were completely sure that Garci left the country. We were asked to accept that as fact. Turns out that was almost assuredly inaccurate. Why should we believe their other accusations are facts?
How could he not be found in the remote wilderness of Mindanao? The same way Bin Laden can escape the most capable intelligence and military forces in the world…by hiding in remote mountains with the help some loyal locals. The mutineers, on the other hand, have been caught in populous places or by simply monitoring those suspected of aiding and abeting them (note that San Juan’s lawyer was with him today…I wouldn’t be surprised if they followed him just like they followed Cpt Rivas. BTW, is the lawyer Pulido? Te?).
However, if GMA was guilty, she wouldn’t look hard for Garci. Agreed. But if she were innocent, she wouldn’t need to find him either. What could he say, after all — “I didn’t cheat with Gloria and that tape is not an accurate description”? Either way, finding Garci wouldn’t — and didn’t — prove anything.
Where is Bolante? I don’t know…in the US, I guess. First of all, he is a private citizen. Secondly, he is not needed in order to perform a thorough investigation — the paper trail is where the facts are. Hard work — not harsh words — will help us all establish what reality is.
“…democratic investigations which are part and parcel of checks and balances in a democracy…” — Sorry Simon, but the Senate is not the prime investigative authority…they just keep acting/sounding as if they think they are. They have you believing them, too, it seems.
Simon, I’m not supporting Gloria…I’m supporting due process, the law and the stability which doing so brings. Isn’t 20 years of recriminations and coup attempts enough for you?
I see the smoke, but I don’t know who created it. Is GMA’s corrupt practices the cause? Are the historically corrupt Presidential entourage, the Senate, the House or the buraucracy the cause? Are the highly-questionable opposition politicians and their allies the cause? It’s hard to tell still.
The only clear thing is that stepping out of the prescribed processes of due justice is killing this country. It has to stop or it’ll just be one circus after another.
Nixon said “I’m not a crook”. Clinton said “I didn’t have anything to do with that woman”. Gloria said “I’m sorry for my lapse in judgment”. It looks like only Gloria is getting away with it because the first two were proven to be liars. Only gloria is successful in covering up or dodging the issues.
In 1986, the constitution was forgotten. Marcos was overthrown. Were you happy with that? In 2001, Erap was overthrown by again disregarding the constitution. If Gloria is toppled by another mob (people power), the constitution will again be forgotten. If ever that happens, Gloria has nobody to blame but herself because she isn’t being truthful and transparent. In the courts, it is the accuser that will prove the guilt of the accused. But in the court of public opinion, this doesn’t apply and she’s losing in it.
In the impeachment process, if Gloria is clean, she could have proven herself to be so. But she chose to dodge by killing the process. If she believes that she can prove herself clean, she shouldn’t have blocked it like what Erap did.
It does come out that you’re a paid apologist Geo …, you’re asking for hard proofs as if we’re in a court. What I’m asking is just for Gloria to prove herself clean, if she can do that, then well and good. We then can move on.
Jon,
I repeat that I am not paid, encouraged nor even known by this administration. I am writing from my heart and my mind. And I believe in the law…in my opinion, it is the only way mankind can keep anarchy at bay…imperfect as the system may sometimes be (just like democracy).
Marcos was running a bona-fide dictatorship. All dictatorships are wrong. I supported Marcos’ ouster.
Erap did not block the impeachment process and was never proven guilty. I don’t support the methodology used for his ouster…though I cringed when he won the election and was glad that he left. It just wasn’t done properly and the price for that is still being paid today.
The evidnece against Nixon was solid. He resigned to avoid the inevitable.
The evidence against Clinton was solid. He was not ousted because the infraction was rather petty (the original infraction, at least). His biggest crime is that he kept choosing the ugliest women available to have his little sordid affairs (LOL!).
The evidence against GMA is invisible (as of yet). Again, maybe Legarda’s protest will change that. If so, I’ll be the first to demand her ouster.
The way Nixon and Clinton were trapped in their lies is by hard work, not hearsay. If GMA is so corrupt and/or devious, she’ll get caught, too. But she must be caught in the “right” way…legally. Is that too much to ask for?
Jon, what if I accused you of being a child molester? How would you prove you are not??? If I kept repeating the charge and people started believing me, would that be adequate cause for your having to pack up and leave the country? To give up your job? To bow your head and walk away…which would then indicate that the charges were valid?
Geo, the difference between me and the president is that I’m me (a nobody, just one of the millions of OFWs and just answerable to myself and family), while GMA is the president and accountable to the people. IF somebody accuses me of being a child molester, I will not hide. I will face the accusation squarely and prove my innocense by answering the questions, and refute whatever “proof” he provides. If people believe the accusation, then tough luck, but in the end I believe the truth will prevail.
As I have mentioned I’m not responsible for what others believe and I don’t care as long as I believe I’m clean and innocent. The president can’t do the same, she has to answer the questions and accusations squarely.
geo,
pardon my asking, were you able to (painstakingly) listen to all the tapes including bunye’s and chavit’s?
“Have you performed this exercise?â€Â
Geo, I guess many years from now those asking so mmany questions today will still be asking many question.
many years from now those who decided to move on would have accomplished more things.
Yes Geo, it’s amazing how conclussions are arrived too.
Today on the news there was this group of joey conception & other leading a group called “go negosyo”.
personaly, I think these people are heros in their own right cause they are sharing skill & talents they have to others.
I think they are responsible citizens.
I have always felt that before you can give anything really of value.an individual must first be secure & confident & have real skill & talents to share. Only then can we truely
contributing “positive values” & not spreading you no what that does not make us even human.
I was watching the jobs creation guy of the president, Yap, & i think his job & responsibility really very impressive.
I guess those who have much to protest about will always be outspoken compared to those who in a way have a higher prospective of life.
personaly,I really fill that we must be able to give other good exsamples of how we solve our problems.
We really have to help people understand that freedom comes w/ responsibility & our actions & judgments that are not well thought off have consequences too.
Geo,
You didn’t answer what I honestly asked from you ” Do you find her (Arroyo) not corrupt (Can you answer this last question pls if you’re not poised to answer the rest)?” Your answer to this will prove if you’re indeed a righteous and principled man for others who is incidentally for Arroyo, in this email discussion of ours on Arroyo.
Your extensive business connection should at least give you a first hand account of how honest or corrupt Arroyo is from friends who have dealings with the Arroyo government and whom you know would not lie to you.
A public office is a public trust! Has Arroyo lived up to this public trust? If she has committed acts against public trust and against the Constitution, how does one go and prove charges (the truth) against one acting as president (whether fake or not) under our constitutional system? What is the due process required, Geo? Geo, there is only one due process in this case against a de facto (acting) or de jure (legal) president. Prove the charges against her thru an impeachement proceedings as an acting president is immune from all other due processes.
What happened to the impeachment proceedings against her? You knew Geo, she and her congressional gang members killed it and by so doing they have killed the only road to the TRUTH of her criminal acts. When they killed the only due process available to hear criminal/culpable charges against Arroyo, they have left the people with no other choice but to try and convict her thru other processes available to the people, the ultimate repository of democracy. Geo, were you outraged when Gloria’s gang members in Congress killed the only due process to ferret the TRUTH against Gloria’s crimes or did you just dismiss this perfunctorily as something political and the most natural thing to do? (Maybe, this is where Ateneo high school dropout Erap was stupid indeed than the Ateneo masteral graduate Arroyo because he did not move heaven and earth and bribe his congressmen to kill the impeachment proceedings. Arroyo learned from the monumental mistake committed by Erap. But she just does not know yet what lies ahead? Maybe, it could be worse hypothetically than what Erap is going through now.) If you did, I salute you for intellectual honesty? If not, you are just as condemnable as those opportunistic businessman cum Marcos’ cronies. Sorry to label you as one if you were not outraged by what they did to the impeachment proceedings. Because like you I too believe in due process but if the only due process available is shamelessly killed, what else must an indignant people do?
The French, the British, the Americans, the Chinese… they all chose the only option left to the people during the dark political times in their history… they exercised the supreme right to overthrow by arms a calloused government who have closed all peaceful avenues to TRUTH and justice. This is what is taking place now Geo. What due process are you referring to when the last due process available was unjustly denied?
The charges against Arroyo appears to be the tip of the iceberg only, Geo. Only because she has acted like one guilty of abominable crimes covering up left and right and posing all technicalities, propaganda, cosmetics and frantically hiding behind temporary good news for the only purpose of surviving all corruption issues against her. She has only herself to blame. If she is clean, she has nothing to fear and to hide? Or is she, Geo?
The conscientious and idealistic members of the military and of the civilian populace are restive Geo and maybe the battle has already shifted from the arena of due processes and legalities to one of morality, truth, justice and the sovereign force of an indignant people.
Joey: I love you, my friend. I would gladly work for you, would treaure you if you worked for me and would be honored if you were to be my partner. Our paths are difficult and full of pain…yet worth every step we take. Kudos to you, sir.
baycas: Since I don’t know which — if any recording — is a valid and accurate reproduction, I don’t see the point in straining my human ears in order to gather some unreliable info. You do realize that we can’t diferentiate between the real deal and a phony, yes? Please don’t tell me that you have reached a final conclusion based on what these tapes sounded like to your ears.
Jon: In the pretend scenario, what if I have a copied and pasted a post on a kids’ website that I claim is yours? I can’t prove it, but I insist it is yours. You answer my allegations straight on (while admitting that you surf for porn) but I still insist you are lying. You deny doing anything wrong, but I say that the way you looked at the sky when I accused you indicates that you are surely, without a doubt, guilty. And everyone around us grunts a “yes” and raises their bolo knives menacingly. “This Jon guy certainly ‘looks like’ he is guilty…didn’t you read that post he made??? Fry the jerk!”
OK…now prove your innocence to this group. Good luck.
You see? That’s why we have laws and processes and procedures — they may or may not be perfect, but they are necessary. If we continually disregard these laws, a lot of people will get unjustifiably screwed. Conversely, some guilty people will get away with murder under this system.
But what can you do? Stick with the process; stick with the law. If not, anarchy reigns.
My point all along has been that traditional intellectual analysis requires seperating fact from noise. My fear — much more of a recent phenomenom — is that the noise is pushing this whole country to the brink of disaster. My solution is that we stick to the law.
I am begging…literally and shamelessly begging…that this country’s intellectual leaders go back to the basics and insist on peaceful, legal and thoughtful analysis. Please. Before it’s too late.
In the meantime, international confidence drops, the Peso sinks, investors hold back, the debt becomes more of a burden…and no one gains. Great.
Simon,
You asked: “You didn’t answer what I honestly asked from you ‘Do you find her (Arroyo) not corrupt'”.
****I thought I DID answer your question. To wit, my previous statements:
“So when you ask me how I can XYZ when she cheated, I must again answer that I have no idea if she did or didn’t cheat, lie or steal, that she did or didn’t commit massive electoral fraud, etc. I can only challenge your premise as the “truthâ€Â, as it is presently unsupported by any clear evidence.”
“I’ve never maintained that Gloria is definitely not guilty; I’ve only maintained that there is a need for proof that she did before anything extreme can happen.”
“I see the smoke, but I don’t know who created it. Is GMA’s corrupt practices the cause? Are the historically corrupt Presidential entourage, the Senate, the House or the buraucracy the cause? Are the highly-questionable opposition politicians and their allies the cause? It’s hard to tell still.”
Is that clear enough? Do I now rate, in your eyes, as a “righteous and principled man”?
——————————————————-
Simon, you also asked:
“If she has committed acts against public trust and against the Constitution, how does one go and prove charges (the truth) against one acting as president (whether fake or not) under our constitutional system? What is the due process required, Geo? Geo, there is only one due process in this case against a de facto (acting) or de jure (legal) president. Prove the charges against her thru an impeachement proceedings as an acting president is immune from all other due processes.”
and…
“What happened to the impeachment proceedings against her? You knew Geo, she and her congressional gang members killed it and by so doing they have killed the only road to the TRUTH of her criminal acts.”
***Well, Simon, impeachment is only one avenue.
If we are talking about electoral fraud, the opposition and third party observers saw the whole process with their own eyes…and didn’t register a complaint. That’s one avenue that wasn’t used. In addition, the PET is a legal body to handle belated appeals. Though Poe died and rendered his appeal moot, Legarda’s protest with PET is alive and kicking. And that’s why I’m reserving judgement until I see what the results are. For months on end, I have repeatedly asked why so few people (most importantly those who claim fraud) have ignored this situation.
Meanwhile, another impeachment attempt is probably inevitable. I suggest you write your Congressman and register your feelings.
If we are talking about corruption, I maintain that it is easy enough to place a complaint/allegation with the Ombudsman. The law clearly defines this procedure/path. (Incidentally, why do the oppositionists hesitate to just bring their cases to the Ombudsman? It’s awfully easy to do.)
———————————————-
You also wrote:
“Geo, were you outraged when Gloria’s gang members in Congress killed the only due process to ferret the TRUTH against Gloria’s crimes or did you just dismiss this perfunctorily as something political and the most natural thing to do?”
***I saw it coming from the very beginning. I was not surprised. Politics is politics. It was a game of numbers and the numbers were never in doubt. That doesn’t mean the House’s judgement was right or wrong…just “normal”, really. It happens all the time around the world.
——————————–
You also wrote:
“Maybe, this is where Ateneo high school dropout Erap was stupid indeed than the Ateneo masteral graduate Arroyo because he did not move heaven and earth and bribe his congressmen to kill the impeachment proceedings.”
***No, he didn’t. However, the Senate killed the impeachment on his behalf (why?). The key players eventually are in the Senate, not the House. If the Senate majority was pro-GMA, she could have let it go that far as well. It’s all politics, my friend. No more, no less.
—————————————————-
You also wrote:
“you are just as condemnable as those opportunistic businessman cum Marcos’ cronies.”
***That insult is uncalled for. I am only preaching and ranting about maintaining a respect for law and due process while condemning the practice of factless allegations and recriminations thrown by all sides…that’s a loser’s game.
—————————————————
You also wrote:
“Because like you I too believe in due process but if the only due process available is shamelessly killed, what else must an indignant people do?”
***Continue to respect the law and to act responsibly.
—————————————————-
You also wrote:
“…they exercised the supreme right to overthrow by arms a calloused government who have closed all peaceful avenues to TRUTH and justice. This is what is taking place now Geo. What due process are you referring to when the last due process available was unjustly denied?”
***You have been misinformed and/or manipulated; your comment is inaccurate. As stated above, there are ample opportunities for the oppositionists to make good on their claims. They have failed to do so. That’s kind of important here, no?
————————————————-
You also wrote:
“Only because she has acted like one guilty of abominable crimes covering up left and right and posing all technicalities, propaganda, cosmetics and frantically hiding behind temporary good news for the only purpose of surviving all corruption issues against her. She has only herself to blame. If she is clean, she has nothing to fear and to hide? Or is she, Geo?”
***”Acted like”, eh? “Frantically hiding behind temporary good news”, eh? You have been brainwashed, I fear. You can repeat these words a thousand times (but that’s been done already), but just back up your cliams, please.
If she is clean, all she has to worry about is power-grabbers, coup artists and the brainwashing of those who are predisposed to radical action without a care for what happens afterwards.
If she is dirty, she’ll get caught. Information and facts are too readily available these days for a sleazy operator to ghet away clean and free.
——————————————————
You also wrote”
“The conscientious and idealistic members of the military and of the civilian populace are restive Geo and maybe the battle has already shifted from the arena of due processes and legalities to one of morality, truth, justice and the sovereign force of an indignant people.”
***Now THAT is a self-righteous and patently BS statement. “Morality, truth and justice” imposed by a minority on a reluctant majority? Hah! How about “A minority which is indifferent, ignorant and/or devious and which is oblivious to the needs of the populus — like a job…or a better job?”
I believe I’m a concientous and realistic citizen…but I don’t want to buy what you are selling.
If you want a coup, get out there and bring a gun. Otherwise, please don’t demand that the rest of us have to suffer the consequences of such a tactic.
You are messing with people’s lives…I recommend that you reconsider your biases before you gamble all of us on your perception. Go back to the basics; get back to the law and due process, says I.
“Since I don’t know which  if any recording  is a valid and accurate reproduction, I don’t see the point in straining my human ears in order to gather some unreliable info. You do realize that we can’t diferentiate between the real deal and a phony, yes? Please don’t tell me that you have reached a final conclusion based on what these tapes sounded like to your ears.â€Â
my hunch was right…it’s the palace’s “brainwashing†(that the tapes are unreliable) you imbibed. believe me, it’s worth your while to listen to all of them (all those you can gather – download bunye’s “original†and “altered†tapes for starters) so you can balance your president gloria’s mantra to that of the BUNGLING opposition lawmakers.
i once have given gloria the benefit of the doubt by not listening to the tapes…but, come to think of it, i must likewise give the opposition their share to balance the equation and remove whatever bias i have against them. that, to me, is “intellectually taking the neutral position.â€Â
yes, i’ve reached a final conclusion that it’s every Filipino’s obligation to listen to the tapes… before one can distinguish who tells the truth and who peddles lies…before one can carp out what’s right and what’s wrong…before one can put the legitimacy issue to rest and move on.
pray tell us, geo, your final conclusion when you already strained your human ears and listened to the tapes…
Geo,
Good question. But postings in the internet can be traced using the IP address of the computer you used. I can prove that I was not using that computer, and can therefore trace that somebody is framing me up. Simple answer isn’t it?
In the impeachment process, Gloria could have done something like that too. But she preferred not to answer it, she killed the impeachment process.
baycas — I am saying that I don’t have enough info to come to a conclusion; I don’t know if the tapes are real or fake. That’s a bona fide intellectually neutral position.
You say that you have come to a conclusion that the tapes are real…because they *sound* real. You’ve taken a position. Since I challenge the validity of your conclusion, you now think I am firmly in the other camp. That’s not valid, logical or accurate. Only if I claim that I know the tapes are fake do I take a non-neutral position and fall into the opposite camp of yours.
BTW, I HAVE listened to the tapes (and have studied the transcripts thereof)…and I still can’t draw any final conclusions. Sorry. I think you may be overlooking that fact that the tapes could have easily been doctored…and can be easily made to sound however one wants. That’s a fact.
Are you aware of that? Are you familiar with the technology?
The tapes (any and all tapes) may be real or they may be fake. We don’t know…and can never know unless the tapper emerges and produces the original tapes. That’s a fact…no matter how many times you listen to the tape.
If the tapper and the originals never appear, we need another way to figure out if the accusation of electoral fraud. The best way is to look at the votes themselves. If there was cheating, the paper trail will show it.
With Poe’s (RIP) death, the avenue for examining the votes is via Legarda’s recount. We can learn a lot (if not everything) this way.
I’ve been saying (and writing) this for a long time. But I have also been noting that the opposition has put little (or zero) effort in pursuing this — they didn’t draw attention to Loren’s appeal and didn’t help her raise money for it.
That is illogical. If the opposition can prove their case and this is the very best way to do so, why are they so mute about all of this? This at least deserves some contemplation.
Nonetheless, I anxiously await PET’s results and I’ll hopefully have real facts to deal with…while taking both the admin’s and the opposition’s with a grain (nay, a truckload) of salt. I refuse to be brainwashed by the propaganda of either side.
But until then, I don’t say that the issue is settled and that everyone should move on. What I’m saying is that everyone — inside and outside of the political arena — should just keep doing their job, should lower the noise level (and protect the country’s economy and economic future), and should let/demand that a recount be made.
To me, that is a fair, logical, reasonable, productive approach to all of this mess.
Another approach is to claim that one “knows the truth” (how?), to keep yelling, screaming and trying to stir up people/things to bring down the government. The result of this approach is that investors get turned off and hesitate/refuse to invest, while coup plotters exploit the situation and create instability (or maybe worse).
Which approach do you think is better for the country and for the people…regardless of the personality in Malacanan?
Jon,
How can GMA or anyone prove that the tapes are inaccurate (if they are indeed so)?
How can GMA or anyone prove that she didn’t commit electoral fraud?
How can anyone prove that the tapes are real/accurate?
How can anyone prove that GMA cheated?
Pls don’t tell me “just have an impeachment process”, but tell me how — during an impeachment process or in a court of law — one could prove their contention.
Geo,
Now it is you who is missing the point by disregarding “just have an impeachment process”. It is my point. In the impeachment process, it is now the accusers turn to prove their accussations. GMA is assumed innocent. If indeed the impeachment went on and the opposition cannot prove their accussations then nobody can question her that she did not abide by the rules. Which is my bone of contention, that she could have had closure. That’s my simple personal stand on it.
However, since GMA has chosen the course she is treading now, whatever problems she has now is of her undoing.
Jon,
OK, you’re stuck on the issue of why the impeachment was squelched. Fair enough.
Cut through all the brouhaha about which complaint should/shouldn’t have been used/which came first…and all the legalities/technicalities and what do we have?
1. Proceed on an impeachment case which focuses on the issue of electoral fraud.
or…
2. Proceed on an impeachment that has a long list of accusations, including jueteng, northrail, Comelec AVMs, piatco, and/or whatever else was included. Oh, and electoral fraud, too.
Since option #2 is a massive task and can be coursed on a case-by-case basis (with accompanying indications of illegal doings) to the Ombudsman (who would then collect evidence and possibly initiate prosecution), and since the real topic of the day was electoral fraud — why not just first focus on electoral fraud?
To my knowledge, an impeachment procedure is not a venue for registering every complaint one can think of; it is an avenue for unseating an errant (or worse) official who has committed a specific act of crime or extreme negligence.
Has there ever been — in the history of democracies — an impeachment trial with such a long and varied list of accusations? I really don’t know, but I have my doubts.
Which brings us to the single issue in option #1: Electoral fraud.
OK — present one’s case. Garci Tapes? Rejected; illegal; unconfirmable.
So what other evidence is there?
And there’s the rub. Aside from a recount, what evidence is there that can prove/disprove the claim? Hearsay, perhaps…and I haven’t seen anything else put forward.
So how to proceed? Well, the House could send it up to the Senate.
But the Senate is full of anti-GMA types and many had already said that she was guilty…publicly (but based on what evidence?). In addition, they don’t need to prove anything; a show of hands could settle the whole matter. Is that correct? (I’m not a lawyer)
So the House rejected the complaint and stopped the process dead in its tracks. It was, essentially, a pro-admin House vs an anti-admin Senate. That’s how it works, no?
If I were GMA, I would have wanted the House to kill the impeachment, too. Wouldn’t you? Otherwise, it would have been suicide as a “fair” “trial” would not have been forthcoming in the Senate.
In the meanwhile, the opposition was and has been able to present it’s “evidence” via the media (which has been sparse and weak). They also did so via B&W’s “People’s Court” (during which even their supporters lamented about the lack of solid evidence and proper, reasonable procedures).
So the Senate became the prosecutor, judge and jury…or so they tried to be. But that isn’t their role; they are supposed to legislate.
All the non-electoral complaints can be given to the Ombudsman — which is the proper channel. The opposition must use that venue.
But the issue of masive electoral fraud hangs. What to do?
Again, Defensor offered the Bishops — on tv — to become a Truth Comission. But the CBC has yet to act on that offer.
So just what can GMA do to prove her alleged innocence? In what venue? She’s stuck.
Now if you feel that this situation is all GMA’s fault and that this justifies undermining the viability of the Philippines’ economy and of possible coups, then that’s your private opinion. But if you illegally go to the streets, demand that the government is brought down, ally yourself with highly questionable personalities and groups, support coups, allow a small junta to take over, well…you are asking for chaos.
And that is what I’m against.
Just look at Legarda’s recount, I say. What’s so hard about that? Keep a lid on the political instability and promote the Philippines as a tourist and investment location. What’s bad about that? Create more jobs. Is that wrong?
the truth & accountabilty commission was not a Black & White thing, it was convened and held under the auspices of Bukluran Para Sa Katotohanan.
I presume, also, Geo, you do not admit the possibility of a coverup on the part of the Palace.
mlq3,
Thanks for the correction. However, weren’t the B&W members (and their associates/allies) a huge portion of that People’s Court/Truth and Accountability Commission?
Meanwhile, yes, I acknowledge the possibility that the palace covered up. I indeed acknowledge that she may well have cheated. Just as I acknowledge the opposite possibilities.
My problem is that things are spinning out of control and hurting the country’s economy…which is much too delicate and critical to mess with. And this is happening because the law is not being followed…hence creating even more skepticism that the Philippines is a good place to invest and do business.
Worst of all, the clouds of potential coups (or just continuous destabilization) are gathering. If it rains, especially rains blood…or if non-democratic types take over…how will you feel? Is that an outcome you desire? I doubt it.
geo, not huge, not even tiny -token, would be the best description, i was actually a minority in giving it the benefit of the doubt. the most committed, and which is why it ended up resembling a stalinist show trial, were the communists.
i agree things are spinning out of control, but not for the reasons you give. they are spinning out of control because the President is blocking all reasonable, democratic options. Her continuation under the present scheme of things, with all legal and constitutional avenues firmly blockaded, will limit foreign investment only to those willing and even eager to bargain with her, and to a society that will reap only the trickle down benefits of those who must by necessity, give the lion’s share to the president and her pals. in the process, the larger interest of opening up and modernizing the economy is being set up, as business collaborates with her, and will suffer a backlash in the end when she goes, whether sooner or later.
Geo, I’m a great beleaver that in society each one has a role to play.the better each one plays his “constructive” role, will reflect in society too.
Many years ago I had a friend who was a welder by profession.I had to presue my studies abroad & he went to Australia.since he never went to collage.One day he challanged himself & enrolled in the most difficult collage course that time.It was computer science..Today I’m so glad that he bits me by lips & bounds.He easily erans 150,000.00 a day ++.It’s not about the money.It’s about the attitude. It’s about challengeing oneslef to be the best.The consequence becomes only a means to be able to help others & the skill makes one a true leader w/ something to give.
geo…and i thought you wouldn’t want to strain your ears…so you already heard them after all (“hello, garci,†bunye’s and chavit’s)? i’m sure you’ve noticed errors in the transcripts as against the voices…
why was there a bunye preemptive strike in releasing the tapes? why was there a cover-up? in bunye’s “original,†why was there a gary ruado speaking on top of garcillano’s voice supposedly conversing with gloria (i heard 3 voices in one of the threads – a teleconference???) – who made that? the opposition?
how about the “kidnapping†of doble and his sudden turnaround, the doj threats (re: possession of wiretaps), the nondisclosure of the mayuga investigation, the promotion or “non-touch†of isafp personnels, the initial reluctance and eventual junking of the investigation by the nbi (despite having tons of voices in the tapes – which only meant there was a wiretapper or interceptor lurking in our midst), the palace’s stonewalling of the garci investigations, etc., etc.?
i am probably equally perplexed by my questions if you also can’t find answers to yours.
note that nixon’s cover-up did him in. there was also an illegally-sourced white house tapes (a recording of conversations inside the oval office which he authorized) that he withheld from the u.s. supreme court exercising his executive privilege. that “smoking gun†had a tape where damning evidence of the cover-up was, if i remember it right, erased. but to no avail, the tapes were then surrendered to the SC.
the difference in nixon’s case is that there was a conscientious “deep throat,†there was proper handling of evidence, there was absence of a power-hungry and actually obnoxious opposition, and most especially there was an ultimate, heavenly, supreme (and other superlatives) sacrifice of a resignation! (though i probably would think that there was already a concession of a pardon after his VP takes on the helm…nonetheless, he resigned.)
in our political stalemate, it’s wishful thinking to expect manna from heaven in the form of a gloria “delicadeza.†i think, the next best thing is if she’s ousted or unglued from her throne…i can still wait, ‘cause the comelec’s still in shambles…but abalos’ fate is slowly moving to his closure now that our SC is prodding “mercy†(the ombudsman) to fall upon us.
with gloria out, comelec restored, elections will determine a legitimate president…now, i’m sure this will be difficult and i really can’t fathom how this will be done (esp. the first one; the second one – it’s also up to gloria-cheering-squad of a congress and besides who’ll appoint/fill up the vacancies)…in the same manner, i can’t figure out why the opposition doesn’t take your legarda option (is it because PET wouldn’t allow a recount anyway?). i wouldn’t want to venture on another impeach-gloria scenario as long as pork or perk made residence in the as_es of gloria’s congressmen.
now…to a more realistic solution: prevent cha-cha, overhaul comelec and then let’s wait for the people’s verdict come election year 2007.
as to technology, i had my share of making “hello, garci†ringtones and sharing them with friends and even net uploading. somehow i know how easy it is to cut-copy-paste a digital recording and how difficult it is to “streamline the edges,†so to speak, in order to make a really authentic-sounding stitches of voices and tones (i’m sure chavit and rj taught us how it was hard to fabricate)…that’s besides the application of randy david’s “hermeneutics and ethnomethodology†in spoken words. i’m not an expert, mind you…but not only do the tapes sound real to me…but events made it real to me.
as to your “camp†of choice, geo, we are polarized…you are typing words same as the palace’s…as i may probably be conveying the opposition’s stand. you have your convictions, i have mine…you have your conclusions, i have my own.
last note…i’m glad you listened to the tapes (notwithstanding your stand)…frankly, it’s a harrowing experience to me…